What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[robroy]

Hey Robert thanks for responding!

Refresh our memory about which windage tray you used? I remember some discussion about an Milodon one and the Factory Cobra Jet style.

Indeed! I installed a Milodon 32224. Here's a photo from the Milodon Web site:



And here's a photo I took before installing it (I have several more photos if posting them would serve any purpose).



I had three reasons for choosing this tray: I thought it might be more available (easier to buy) than the Factory Cobra Jet Style, Milodon claimed that it was an improvement over the F.C.J. Style, and I was in a hurry. I know that these might not have been the best reasons, but there you have it!

If there's evidence that the F.C.J. style tray is superior, or if the Milodon tray simply won't clear the crankshaft, I'll certainly consider swapping in a different tray!

With the fact that it seems to be coming from the pan, I would not run it any more.

Okay, I'll follow this advice!

It should be possible to manually turn the engine. (Pull the plugs, chock at least two wheels [on both the front and back of the wheel], and place the transmission in neutral).

Okay, this is how I'll go about it then! Hopefully I can hear the issue when turning the engine over that way. In order to turn it, I have one of those tools that bites the ring gear on the flywheel, then provides a lever to turn it. That's a good way to turn it by hand, right?

Is pulling the plugs necessary just to make it easier to turn the engine over, or is there some other reason I should pull them?

And as for the wheel chocks and putting the transmission in neutral, I'll be sure to do those things!

Thanks again for your superb reply Robert!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

Pulling the plugs is to make it easier to turn and also it might enable you to feel any interference. You can use a socket/ratchet on the crankshaft bolt as well as the flywheel turner you describe.

That tray looks very similar to an Factory Cobra Jet/FRPP tray, I see no reason to chose one over the other.

http://www.428cobrajet.com/id-oilpan.html

At this point you are only trying to verify where the noise is coming from, as you seem pretty sure I wouldn't spend a lot of time doing so, you can probably have the engine high enough to pull the pan in a few hours, so it doesn't make sense to spend a lot more diagnosis time unless you aren't sure the noise is coming from the pan.

[robroy]

Hey Robert thanks for replying!

Pulling the plugs is to make it easier to turn and also it might enable you to feel any interference. You can use a socket/ratchet on the crankshaft bolt as well as the flywheel turner you describe.

Okay! I pulled the plugs and have been turning the engine with the flywheel turner, but it's still very difficult to turn that way. And it generally requires both hands, so I can't feel around very well (to see if I can feel a clank in the oil pan).

That tray looks very similar to an Factory Cobra Jet/FRPP tray, I see no reason to chose one over the other.

http://www.428cobrajet.com/id-oilpan.html

Okay, excellent!

At this point you are only trying to verify where the noise is coming from, as you seem pretty sure I wouldn't spend a lot of time doing so, you can probably have the engine high enough to pull the pan in a few hours, so it doesn't make sense to spend a lot more diagnosis time unless you aren't sure the noise is coming from the pan.

I see your point, and you're probably right. I'm just trying to get a more solid sense for where the sound is coming from. And I'm hesitant to pull the engine up unless I really need to, since those mounts were a real trick to get all lined up! Of course I probably wouldn't need to line them up again, since I could just remove the single, large bolt on each side that goes through the polyurethane mounts.

I finally got the clutch inspection pan off by loosening the passenger's side header from the head! And I vowed to update the pan slightly before re-installing it to allow it to be removed without needing to make such an event out of it.

Thanks again for the excellent advice!!!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

If you have a helper, holding the clutch in might make it easier to turn, but honestly those flywheel turners don't give you a lot of feel anyway and if it is that hard to turn, a ratchet and socket probably won't either.

The hose (never thought of a hose, always used a 3 foot MAC pry bar) while spinning the starter might work too. PLEASE be careful doing this, caution the helper to keep the clutch pushed in and to ensure the shifter is in neutral. Watch for the spinning flywheel and fan too, nothing can ruin an evening like a trip to the ER...

[robroy]

Hey Robert!!!

If you have a helper, holding the clutch in might make it easier to turn, but honestly those flywheel turners don't give you a lot of feel anyway and if it is that hard to turn, a ratchet and socket probably won't either.

I had Kasie push the clutch in while I was under there turning it with the flywheel tool, but it didn't make much difference. That thing's not easy to turn! I wasn't able to feel any type of catch or roughness through either tool, although I could hear some noises (more on that in a moment).

The hose (never thought of a hose, always used a 3 foot MAC pry bar) while spinning the starter might work too.

This might be my next step!

PLEASE be careful doing this, caution the helper to keep the clutch pushed in and to ensure the shifter is in neutral. Watch for the spinning flywheel and fan too, nothing can ruin an evening like a trip to the ER...

Thanks for the warning! I'll be super careful about the flywheel and the alternator fan. The engine has no water pump fan on it so at least that's one less hazard!

So while turning it over by hand, the only sounds I'm able to hear are coming from the pressure plate area. I can't hear anything coming from the oil pan yet.

From the pressure plate area I'm hearing an intermittent clicking/scraping sound. It's not super loud, but then again, I can't turn the engine over very quickly by hand! I'm not sure what sounds, if any, a pressure plate is normally supposed to make when it's spinning around. Also, I can't see anything around there that it could be scraping on!

I'll be super careful and use the starter method next!

Thanks again Robert!!!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

From the pressure plate area I'm hearing an intermittent clicking/scraping sound.

With the clutch pushed in you probably will hear some scrubbing (the clutch disk against the P.P. and Flywheel), clicking sounds like something else?

What bolts did you use to attach the flywheel to the crankshaft? Original? Can you see any indication that they might have passes all the way through and be rubbing on the back of the block or perhaps the lip of the oil pan? (I don't know if you are going to be able to see this or not, but its worth a try).

[robroy]

With the clutch pushed in you probably will hear some scrubbing (the clutch disk against the P.P. and Flywheel), clicking sounds like something else?

Yes perhaps! This sound happens whether the clutch is pushed in or not. Based on the volume of the sound, it doesn't seem like it could possibly amount to that loud chatter while the engine's running, but it's hard to say!

What bolts did you use to attach the flywheel to the crankshaft? Original? Can you see any indication that they might have passes all the way through and be rubbing on the back of the block or perhaps the lip of the oil pan? (I don't know if you are going to be able to see this or not, but its worth a try).

I don't think I can see back there at this point, but I paid very close attention to the bolt length when installing them, so I think I'm OK there. The bolts I used were ARP 350-2802's. Here's a photo of one installed:



If I remember correctly, they came out just barely flush with the surface of the flywheel closest to the engine.

I'll do the starter motor experiment and report back! Thanks very much Robert!
Robroy

[robroy]

I think I've narrowed it down! I went under the truck armed with a piece of heater hose while Kasie worked the starter from above.

While poking the heater hose around, I found an area towards the rear of the oil pan, in the center, where a distinct grinding/rubbing sound could be observed (with the starter running). It was an area roughly 2" square. The sound could be heard only faintly when I touched the hose to other areas of the oil pan.

So I suppose that even if that's NOT the loud tapping sound I'm hearing with the engine running, I need to look in to it anyways. It's true that grinding sounds should never come form the crankshaft area, right?

Okay, so to pull the oil pan down again, should I give it a whirl before lifting the engine up, or is there no point in that? Naturally, if I could sneak through the procedure without having to lift the engine I'd be very happy about that.

Also, I'm thinking that if I only need to lift the engine a few inches, I can leave the radiator hoses all hooked up, right? I'd hate to have to drain all that coolant already!

I'll keep ya'll updated. Thanks very much for the excellent advice!
Robroy

[TNIceWolf]

That's one of the problems with doing everything at Once RobRoy. Sometimes it makes it difficult if you cant check each single step in an assembly or rebuild. Be patient and go slow here. You have done some great work.

[DuckRyder]

I don't know how the autofab mounts will play in to it. I don't think you will be able to get the pan out without lifting the engine and I personaly think it is easier to pull the motor, but I've pulled lots of motors...

You can give it a try without raising it and see how it goes, if that fails you can always try just pulling the bolts and raising it.

I think when you get the windage tray out it will be obvious where it is hitting.

[robroy]

Hey TNIceWolf and Robert, thanks for the replies!

That's one of the problems with doing everything at Once RobRoy. Sometimes it makes it difficult if you cant check each single step in an assembly or rebuild.

Absolutely! I hear you. And all things considered, I'm actually amazed with how many things have worked out the first time!

Be patient and go slow here. You have done some great work.

That I will do, and thank you!

I don't know how the autofab mounts will play in to it. I don't think you will be able to get the pan out without lifting the engine and I personaly think it is easier to pull the motor, but I've pulled lots of motors...

I know what you mean about the Autofab mounts. While I was trying to remove the rear sump pan, it was a complete joke to try that without lifting the engine up quite a ways. But this pan may be different, so I'll give it a whirl! Pulling the engine all the way out is a major event for me that I'd rather not tackle unless I really need to!

You can give it a try without raising it and see how it goes, if that fails you can always try just pulling the bolts and raising it.

That I'll do!

I think when you get the windage tray out it will be obvious where it is hitting.

That's what I'm hoping for!

The oil is draining out as I type. With the drain plug where it is, it's the classic experience where it runs everywhere. Luckily I still have my left over rear sump oil pan, and that's doing a great job of keeping it off of the floor. I simply must get a custom drain plug made on this pan before putting it back on!

Thanks for the excellent advice!
Robroy

[Ranchero50]

Well, I think you're doing pretty good. Just remember this bit of advice, trust but verify, everything. If it's hitting you'll see marks somewhere. Personally I'd drop the tranny and pull the motor and bellhousing as a unit, dissassemble as I go until I find the noise.

Jamie

[robroy]

Good morning Jamie, thanks for replying!

Well, I think you're doing pretty good. Just remember this bit of advice, trust but verify, everything.

Sound advice! Especially when the work involved to fix it is non-trivial. The pain of this event has been very educational for me already.

If it's hitting you'll see marks somewhere.

Excellent!

Personally I'd drop the tranny and pull the motor and bellhousing as a unit, dissassemble as I go until I find the noise.

Hopefully I wont need to go that far, but I can understand how somebody super comfortable pulling everything out again could go that route. Part of what I'm not going that route is that I don't have a transmission jack, or any floor jack at all, at the moment.

The update: I got all the oil pan bolts removed and the pan and windage tray came apart nicely! Although I used RTV against the advice of many folks, I am really glad I used it only between the gaskets and the windage tray, instead of between the gasket and the block! It made it pretty easy to pull apart, like dentures falling out of a dinosaur's mouth.

But naturally, I don't see any way to pull it directly out without lifting the engine up a ways. On to that!

Thanks very much!
Robroy

[robroy]

I have the carburetor removed, the lift plate installed, and am working on taking the motor mounts apart.

I inserted the large bolt that goes through the polyurethane bushing on the driver's side with the head facing the rear of the truck. At the time this seemed like a smart idea, since I'd have to remove the oil filter adapter to get it out from the front. But now the headers are installed, and one of the tubes runs right behind the head of that bolt!

So for that mount, I'm removing the bolts that hold it to the engine block. Even though those are hard to access, I have a fantasy about being able to pull this engine up without taking the headers off. I don't like the idea of crushing and re-crushing those Remflex gaskets unless I really need to!

I'm taking photos as I go and will post soon!

Thanks for the great advice!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

You can probably raise it quite a bit with then attached (at least on a C6 the bellhousing will hit before the headers) but It won't come out with them attached...