Proformance Unlimited 390FE for #50: a complete disaster.

[70shortwide]

I dont believe that allthread was used in Robroys engine. I think that was an engine that the guy in the ripoff report had.

[70_F100]

[papabug71]

Wow. Lots of pissed off people. & they have dam good reason to be PO'ed.

I would be en-route to NJ to tear someone a new one. . . .

[michael69]

You and me both!!! Or at lest tear it big enough untill $8999.00 fell out of it!

[R.Smith]

All thread bearing bolts are fine as long as you use beer can shims and duct tape gaskets.

I actually had a tractor engine rebuilt for a 38 Case and the "machinist" shimmed the bearings with cut up aluminum cans. I fired it up, it ran about a minute and siezed up. When I dropped a bearing cap, out came the home made shims. Man was I pissed!

He fixed it PDQ. Still never trusted the engine or machinist again though.

The Pro-formance guys seem to have a history of jack leg work. I hope that means they won't argue and pay up. I can't imagine them staying in business more than a few months if this is something they refuse to take responsibility for on a regular basis.

[Alvin in AZ]

All thread bearing bolts are fine as long as you use beer can shims and duct tape gaskets.

Whew, thanks for clearing that up, RS. :)
I've been thinking I -couldn't- use all tread on main bearing caps anymore. :/
Still working towards my -Ace- Hammer Mechanic level. :)

---------------------------

So this is a stud with a hex-head in the middle of it, as opposed to all thread then...?
http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4300zz.JPG
...it does look like a "headed stud" as opposed to a nut. :)

----------------------------

This whole thing sucks Robroy. :/
Wasn't aware you "got it running" until the other night when I read the sorry story. :/

Ask Tom what he thinks of sealed ball bearings being used for pilot bearings, for me. :)
If he don't like them and why, I'd like to know. :)
My 6303 is still working like a champ. :)

Alvin in AZ

[papabug71]

I used pop can shims to shim up a U joint one time. The yoke was wobbled out. It lasted a week & thanks to my quick fix, I had to buy a new transfer case as the drive shaft split the old one from back to front while it was beating the crap out of the road & underside of my poor Jeep.

[robroy]

Good afternoon FoMoCoGuy, Howdy69, Steve, ToughOldFord, Robert, 70_F100, Fordman, Jeff, Jeff W., Papabug71, Michael69, R.Smith, and Alvin, thanks for all your great replies!

I appreciate the references to the complaints others have had with Proformance Unlimited in that they add some perspective to my situation. Yet to keep this thread as on-topic and specific to my engine as possible, I'll avoid replying to those points (but I do appreciate them)!

Thanks for your continued interest!

Ryan just used the phrase “I don't want my engine to go down Proformance Unlimited style.”

Yes, it's a classic new phrase!

It made me wonder if a Google search would pick up this thread in the first few pages. This was the fourth link in the list of results.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/Auto-Parts/ ... -7cd72.htm

Here is another one.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/auto-parts/ ... -bdbd7.htm

We got a hit at result 75

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe ... rt=70&sa=N

This guy wasn't too happy either

http://www.runtrails.com/69f100_4.htm

Thanks for posting those links! Some of them I hadn't seen before. I know that this thread doesn't come up very quickly when searching for only "Proformance Unlimited," yet if the search is based on a combination of "Proformance Unlimited" and "problem," these threads are readily found!

I haven't followed all 20 what ever pages of the tapping noise thread. I gather they really effed up on your engine. That sucks!

So far, we've collected a significant amount of evidence to support this. It's definitely a provocative situation, and I've really invested a lot of time and money in to trying to make things right (so far).

You have done such a through job on the whole truck. I hope you get it worked out and you get some money back.

Thanks! I'm also hoping for a favorable resolution here! I want an engine that will at least match the rest of the work I've done, in quality and attention to detail.

The more I learn about ProFormance Unlimited (AKA Pro-Formance Unlimited) the less I like what I learn about ProFormance Unlimited (AKA Pro-Formance Unlimited).

That's understandable! Of course it's hard to say how credible the complaints of other folks are. It doesn't look like any of them did a very thorough job of documenting the problems they hit, and based on the huge number of shining testimonials on the Pro-Formance Unlimited web site, the majority of their customers may be very happy with the product. This said, I can completely understand your reason for making the above statement.

This is sad man. I hope it all works out for you.

Indeed, it's a potent situation. Thanks for your good thoughts on the outcome!

I've had them in my "favorites" for many years now, (in hopes of someday being able to afford one of their 347's).
I'll think twice about that now.

That's understandable!

I dont believe that allthread was used in Robroys engine. I think that was an engine that the guy in the ripoff report had.

True--I didn't detect any all-thread in my engine.

Wow. Lots of pissed off people. & they have dam good reason to be PO'ed.

I would be en-route to NJ to tear someone a new one. . . .

That's understandable! I'm sitting here thinking about this, and whether or not I'm able to explain why I'm not angry about the situation at all. I suppose in part, it's due to being unconvinced that they did anything intentional or malicious to me. Or perhaps it's that I don't find any part of it to be "personal" at all--it feels like a normal, classic kind of business to attend to.

This said, I do appreciate your response and similarly angry responses from others, since it shows how much you guys care about me and my project!

You and me both!!! Or at lest tear it big enough untill $8999.00 fell out of it!

But that would be $4 too much! I paid $8,995. (Just kidding ).

All thread bearing bolts are fine as long as you use beer can shims and duct tape gaskets.

HAAA!!! Good one!!!

The Pro-formance guys seem to have a history of jack leg work.

Indeed. Yet at the same time, they have a tremendous collection of testimonials on their site that look very good! I'm willing to bet that if the ratio of positive and negative feedback were represented graphically, the negative stuff would be a tiny spot, and the positive stuff would constitute the overwhelming majority.

Of course, that certainly doesn't help me in my specific situation!

I hope that means they won't argue and pay up. I can't imagine them staying in business more than a few months if this is something they refuse to take responsibility for on a regular basis.

Agreed!

So this is a stud with a hex-head in the middle of it, as opposed to all thread then...?
http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4300zz.JPG
...it does look like a "headed stud" as opposed to a nut.

Yes I think you're right! It's a funny stud that's coming straight out of the head of that bolt, as far as I could see.

This whole thing sucks Robroy. :/
Wasn't aware you "got it running" until the other night when I read the sorry story. :/

Yeah! Well thanks for reading the story.

Ask Tom what he thinks of sealed ball bearings being used for pilot bearings, for me.

Will do! You can count on it.

If he don't like them and why, I'd like to know.
My 6303 is still working like a champ.

I'd be curious about this too. I'll be sure to ask! Thanks again for your excellent advice on that 6303, by the way!

FoMoCoGuy, Howdy69, Steve, ToughOldFord, Robert, 70_F100, Fordman, Jeff, Jeff W., Papabug71, Michael69, R.Smith, and Alvin, thanks again for your excellent replies!

Robroy

[robroy]

Good afternoon!

I called Steve at Proformance Unlimited a few hours ago and had him on the phone for about half an hour. During our conversation, I took some detailed notes on his responses. I'm paraphrasing what was said, based on memory (I could re-visit all my notes if any of these points aren't clear).

To avoid misrepresentation, I'll state again: these aren't exact quotes--this is all paraphrased and/or narrated.

I began the conversation by thanking Steve for his help with the engine up until now, and apologizing for the delay in contacting him about the engine's fate. I briefly reviewed our most recent shared context.

Last time I spoke with Steve, I had called him to ask what to do about the windage tray to crankshaft clearance issue and all the metal flakes I'd discovered in the oil pan and on the heads. Steve's advice to me at that time was to clean the engine as well as I could externally.

Steve replied that it was his understanding that I ran the engine for a period between 30 seconds and two minutes, and no longer than this. He followed that up with the statement that if he'd known I ran the engine for about ten minutes, he would have recommended that I return the engine to him for them to re-do it.

I explained to Steve that because I'd asked him for his advice two times in a row, and both times he told me, in a convicted manner, that an external engine cleaning would suffice, I'd decided to take it to a California-based builder to have it pulled apart and cleaned out. I said that the amount of metal flakes I saw looked pretty significant, and explained how much of the engine's paint had come off by coming in contact with the brake cleaner.

Steve let me know right then that my actions weren't appropriate, and that the proper action would have been to call him right away. He reiterated that if he'd known that the engine ran for about ten minutes, or if he'd heard that I'd discovered significant metal flakes, he would have offered to have re-worked the engine for me.

I acknowledged his objection but didn't counter it, because I didn't see any point in arguing over that.

Steve then explained that brake cleaner takes ALL paint off, even "ceramic" paint. He mentioned that ceramic paint doesn't hold up in hot tanks either, and that it changes color as the hot tank chemicals come in contact with it.

I asked Steve if this engine was painted with ceramic paint, and he said that it was, and that all Ford blue engines are painted with ceramic paint. I reminded Steve that this engine was yellow, and he said that he'd have to go look up the details on the paint.

I then reminded Steve that I'd previously heard that this engine was rattle-canned with Duplicolor paint. He told me that he didn't remember the specifics, and that he'd have to "look it up." Note that the previous time, he looked it up by asking Doug, and Doug responded based on his memory of what they did. So I don't have much confidence that they actually kept records of what they did.

Before I had even let Steve know about the fate of the camshaft or cylinders or anything, he began explaining that if the engine ran for ten minutes, the metal flakes would be pumped all through it, and it would ruin the bearings, camshaft, and so on. He sounded provoked, possibly nervous. I had the distinct sense that I might have been hearing a prepared defense, since I hadn't mentioned anything about severe engine damage yet!

Then I gave him the main points. I explained how one of the camshaft lobes and several of the lifters had come apart. He assured me that this was all caused by the windage tray, and reiterated that he heard from me that I ran the engine for a duration of 30 seconds to two minutes. He added something like (paraphrased), "When most guys say they ran the engine for two minutes, they really mean 30 seconds."

This 30 second to 2 minute duration kept coming up, but I'm really not sure where this came from. I'm convinced that I told him I ran the engine for about ten minutes.

I explained that in addition to the ruined camshaft and lifters, the cylinder walls had been severely scored. He told me that this was caused by the windage tray problem.

I mentioned that the crankshaft turned out to be bent. He didn't have much of a response to that, if I remember correctly.

I mentioned that several of the valve seats were significant recessed, and that they were recessed enough to change the compression ratio on those cylinders. I added that for some of the valves, several shims had been added under the valve springs to try to counteract the recessed seats. He told me that this is a normal situation, and that this type of thing is done to accommodate the inevitable differences that naturally appear between valves on heads.

I mentioned that the valve stems were quite loose in the guides. He replied that they replaced the guides, and he specifically remembered that because he ordered the new guides himself. I said that although the guides were new, they weren't sized to match the valve stems. Steve said that the only way to know if they're the right size or not is to measure their inside diameters. I let him know that Tom did this measurement. Then Steve asked for the specific measurements. Since I didn't have those in front of me, we moved on to the next point.

I visited the problem with the head surfaces for the exhaust manifolds, and that they were rough hadn't been re-surfaced. I asked him if he'd explain to me (again, since I already asked him a while back), why they hadn't put new surfaces on the heads. I reminded him that before, I'd heard that they didn't have the equipment in their shop to do this work. He said that they didn't put new surfaces on there because modern gaskets are so effective at sealing that there's no point in re-doing those surfaces. He said that they never re-do those surfaces.

I mentioned that although I'd been promised that the engine would produce at least 400 horsepower, a detailed inspection of the engine revealed that to be a technical impossibility, and that when the numbers from everything I had were entered in to Dyno 2000, it said something around 350 horsepower. Steve said that Doug came up with those numbers, and that they have their dyno (I'm assuming he meant software, since my engine was never physically dyno'ed) figured out so well that they were always within 5 horsepower of their estimates. He said that he'd never doubt Doug on those numbers. Then he said that if I provided him with the numbers I came up with, he'd enter those in to their dyno software again to see what the results are.

Doesn't that seem funny that he'd want the measurements to enter in to the dyno software from me? Do they not have them written down themselves?

I touched on the compression ratio issue. I mentioned that on many occasions, I heard that this engine would have a compression ratio of 10:1, yet a measurement of the actual ratio yielded a much lower number (under 9:1). Steve said that he doesn't know about this, and that only the engine builder knows about the specific ratio an engine is designed to run. I was surprised to hear this from Steve, since he let me know, in a most convicted fashion and on several occasions, that this engine ran 10:1 compression.

I revisited the paint job issue, and how easily brake cleaner took it right off. Steve said that all paint is that way. He said that brake cleaner takes off everything, no matter what.

I mentioned that the pistons had their intended cylinder numbers written on them with a marker, and that was still legible when the engine was pulled apart. I added that although the numbers were written on the pistons, they weren't installed in the corresponding cylinders! Steve said that those numbers aren't used to map the pistons to the cylinders. He said that although he doesn't know exactly what the numbers mean, he suspects they're used during during engine balancing.

I brought up the issue of the oil drain-back passages being the stock size. I asked Steve if he remembered the conversation I had with him months ago asking whether they'd increased the oil drain-back passages in the heads, to make sure the oil flow would keep up with the high volume oil pump. I reminded him that at the time, he let me know that they'd increased the diameter of those passages to cope with the HV pump. Steve said that they do normally increase those passages, or do something to increase the oil-drain back flow. I mentioned that not only had the drain-backs not been enlarged, but the oil inlet areas weren't restricted. Steve said that they NEVER restrict oil flow anywhere in the engine.

Although Steve said that they normally do something to the heads to enhance the oil drain back, he wouldn't respond to my statement that this work hadn't been done on these heads. I'm not sure whether the topic naturally changed before he had a chance, or whether he was intentionally avoiding the issue.

I mentioned that the deck was done incorrectly on the engine, and that it had to be re-decked. Steve asked me for the specifics, which I didn't have ready, so we went on to the next topic.

I mentioned that the main bearing saddles were tapered, so that the main bearings had uneven wear on them. He said that he wasn't sure what I was talking about when I said that they're tapered. So I elaborated. I said that the surface that supports the top half of the main bearings, known as the saddles, hadn't been machined correctly, and that instead of supporting the bearings evenly, their tapered shape put uneven force on half of the bearing faces. I mentioned that it was clearly visible in the photos I took of the main bearings. Steve didn't have much of a response to this.

I mentioned that the connecting rod bushings were over-sized and out of specification. Steve said that that's the way they always do it. He said that they machine lots of tolerances larger than spec, to avoid the build-up of heat in the engine. He said that many of their customers really run their engines hard, and that tight tolerances can generate excessive heat.

At some point (I think it was around this point in the conversation, but it might have been mentioned earlier), Steve said that when another builder pulls apart an engine they built, that it's normal for them to provide undue criticism on their work, simply because they do things differently.

I told Steve that the new builder had provided me with an estimate of about $8,500 to not only repair the engine, but to bring it up to the approximate performance that I'd been promised originally (400-436 horsepower). I said that I'd called to ask for their help with the bill. I mention that both the new builder, and many other guys I consulted with had the opinion that most--if not all--of the engine's problems had already been established by the time I originally received it.

Steve urged me to return the engine to him, so that they could re-do it for me. I explained that the work had already begun at the new shop, and that I'd paid the new guy in advance for the work, so I couldn't pull out. I re-stated that I was asking for them to pay the ~ $8,500 bill.

Steve said that he'd bring this up with Doug, and that Doug was out of the office today. I told Steve that I'd send him an e-mail with a list of all the things we found in the engine, including high definition photos of everything. Steve said that would be good, and he gave me his e-mail address.

Then I asked for Doug's e-mail address, so I could CC him on the mail. Steve said that to reach Doug, I could send the mail to info(at)proformanceunlimited.com. I said something like, "So Doug doesn't have his own e-mail address huh?" And Steve said that Doug uses the info(at)proformanceunlimited.com address as his primary address.

That was it!!! I asked him when I'd hear from him again, and he said that he'd call tomorrow, when Doug was back in the office. I thanked him for taking the time to speak with me and the phone call was over!!!

In summary, I heard these main points from Steve:

1. The camshaft, cylinder, and lifter problems were caused by my mistake with the windage tray.
2. The loose tolerance were done that way on purpose, to avoid undue heat in the engine.
3. I should have returned the engine to them instead of taking it to a new place.
4. It's normal for a different builder to put down their work.
5. He's not familiar with very many specifics of the engine. Only the designer of the engine (I'm guessing that's Doug) knows about this. So he can't respond to any specific statements about measurements, performance or tolerance problems.
6. He'll talk to Doug, the owner of Proformance Unlimited, to decide on their next steps.

Thoughts?

Thanks for the absolutely fantastic help!
Robroy

[robroy]

One more thing: I mentioned that my invoice listed Eagle H-Rods, while my engine actually had stock 390 rods. Steve said that this was an honest mistake, and that he'd since fixed it. He said that they only use H-Rods on their 428 engines.

As for whether or not I paid for the Eagle H-Rods, that's unclear, since their invoice isn't itemized.

Thanks very much for the fantastic advice!
Robroy

[ToughOldFord]

[70shortwide]

[70shortwide]

you said you have a way of seeing their website as it was when you oredered your engine? look to see if they list H beams on their list of parts for that crate motor. also, I thought the numbers from tom were approx 330-340 hp? I wouldnt exaggerate numbers in their favor...

[BobbyFord]

I think a lot of Steve's answers were covering his own a$$. There was absolutely not enough metal ground off of the windage tray and circulated to cause the cam and several lifters to fail. Any engine builder knows (or should) to remove the inner valve springs during the critical 20-30 minute camshaft break-in procedure. My opinion is that the cam went flat and sent the damaging metal fragments throughout the engine. He CLEARLY should have left the inner springs out and informed you of proper camshaft break-in procedure.


Incidentally, on the subject of the paint, here is a Duplicolor engine paint can that clearly states "ceramic", which, to me, doesn't really mean it's better than non-ceramic paint.

[fomocoguy]

I have thoughts on every lame excuse he gave you for their sloppy work and corner cutting to save a buck, but I'm not going to tell you what you already know. He is going to tell you whatever he can to cover his rear. It was done mostly wrong, plain and simple. Your pics and details from Tom prove that 100%. The looseness you could feel in the valve guides is a fine example; I just pulled apart a 130k miles engine that was full of gunk and I can't feel any looseness in the guides. A newly rebuilt head with loose valves is sloppy or careless or both, period, and that trend obviously ran throughout the entire build.

I'll be interested to see what he has to say once the pics and detailed measurements hit his desk. I don't see how he could even begin to argue your request for a refund.

I can see his point about having him fix it, but on the other hand I highly doubt it would have been checked to the extent that Tom checked everything. It is now in good hands.

Also, I'd just like to point out that his comments on oil flow to the head just proves that he's dabbling in engines that he knows nothing about.