Way OT, Big brothers lack of morals for the blue colar man

[woods]

around here you have the right to refuse unsafe work ,if they fire you because you won't do something unsafe you can go to the labour relations board for a hearing and then the company generally ends up coughing up a whack of $$$$$$$$$

A safe work enviroment? Sounds like commie talk to me.

[sargentrs]

Sometimes the money just ain't worth it. As stated by many above, you have the right to refuse unsafe work. Have you talked to other guys in the same situation to get their opinion? Do they do it without hesitation? Do they view it the same way you do? While the "regulations" may say that it's a hazardous situation, if other employees placed in the same situation do not consider it out of the ordinary, you'll need to tread lightly and get your ducks in a row. Working on the bump without disconnecting the negative battery cable is "hazardous" but we all do it.

With that said, let me share a bad decision I made in 1982. I was working on an offshore drilling rig as a roughneck. During a "cementing" operation, a "chicksan" line (about a 100# pipe connection) came loose, dropped 30' and hit me across the back and shoulders causing a cracked shoulder blade, broken ribs and a severe concussion. I was airlifted out and on workmen's comp for 2 months. When I was released back to work, I was called to corporate and asked to sign a release and handed a $2000 check if I wouldn't sue. Back then, once you sued an oil company you were "blacklisted" and would never work in the oil patch again. I figured I might need to so I took the cash settlement and signed the paper. I had Penrod Drilling Company, Getty Oil Company and Schlumberger Offshore Services in clearcut negligence and unsafe practice and didn't sue. In 1983, the oil field died and I found myself unemployed and the drilling industry has never been the same since. My shoulder still gives me fits. In retrospect, I should have sued the crap out of 'em!

By the same token, the company I work at now actually cares about their employees and have a rigid safety program. If somebody says "I don't think that's safe" the EHS manager checks it out, provides the proper PPE, etc. or stops the work immediately. No questions asked, no repercussions. It's either safe or it's not. A company has no authority to demand an employee to perform a job that they view is unsafe, illegal, immoral or otherwise. OSHA, EPA and the EEOC says so. Follow your conscience but always think of what condition your family will be in if you make the wrong decision.

[Mancar1]

All I can think to say is. You know you better than anyone. Be true to yourself, it helps one sleep better , and you tend to like the person in the mirror better than if your not.

[FLATBEDFORD]

A safe work enviroment? Sounds like commie talk to me.

Unfortunately, there are those who honestly believe that.

[woods]

A safe work enviroment? Sounds like commie talk to me.

Unfortunately, there are those who honestly believe that.

I know, it's very sad.

[70_F100]

Jeff, I've been a safety professional for many years, and just went through a refresher course today on Incident Command for HAZWOPER. That includes any situation where hazardous chemicals or waste are involved and employees are subject to exposure, along with emergency response situations.

The employees in my plant know that if they think a task is unsafe, they can come to me and I will evaluate the situation. I ALWAYS err to the side of the employee, as I'm pretty much their advocate when it comes to safety. I'll buck right up to management if I think they're putting an employee in harm's way. I've shut down production lines in the past that had $1M/day throughput, just because I found there was an unguarded hazard.

Section 5 of the OSH Act of 1970 mandates that the employer provide a workplace free of recognized hazards: http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp ... &p_id=3359. It also mandates that an employee work safely. This is known as the "General Duty Clause" and is used often whenever an OSHA inspector finds an employer to be at fault in an injury and can't find any other standard that applies.

If they are requiring an SCBA, they know there are hazards present. The question is whether or not they are taking all of the proper precautions prior to sending you into a hazardous atmosphere. Have they done a Respiratory Function Test? Personal Fit Test? Trained you in the use of the SCBA? Provided hazcom training based on the MSDS of any chemicals present? Purchased all of the proper rescue equipment for Permit-Required Confined Space Entry, and have they trained everyone involved in entry, rescue and use of the equipment?

If you'd like to discuss this through PM, feel free, and it will all be in the strictest confidence.

[AlleyCat]

If they are requiring an SCBA, they know there are hazards present. The question is whether or not they are taking all of the proper precautions prior to sending you into a hazardous atmosphere. Have they done a Respiratory Function Test? Personal Fit Test? Trained you in the use of the SCBA? Provided hazcom training based on the MSDS of any chemicals present? Purchased all of the proper rescue equipment for Permit-Required Confined Space Entry, and have they trained everyone involved in entry, rescue and use of the equipment?

While I don't have 70_100's qualifications I do have experience with SCBA from years as a volunteer firefighter. Something I learned is not everyone can use SCBA. Facial features and beards can make getting a good seal almost impossible. Another point is while a person may be okay for a short time extended use can bring about feelings of claustrophobia or suffocation. They need to have a backup for you ready and waiting before you go in just in case something goes wrong. Ready and waiting means they need to be in full PPE right outside the entrance to the area where you're working not in the lunch room on the other end of the building. If you aren't comfortable with the situation and management won't listen to reason get OSHA involved.

[fireguywtc]

Clay, you are right about fitment issues with the SCBA mask, but remember that all modern SCBA's are positive pressure (higher air pressure then ambient air) so if there is a break on the seal it will blow all the air out as long as there is air in the bottle. But anyone using an SCBA must be fit tested annualy to use one. For most confined space I would recommend using a SAR (supplied air respirator) which is the same as an SCBA tethered by a long supply line. Depends on the situation though if it is feasable.

Through my job I have had quite a bit of training also in this stuff. I am a Haz-Mat technician, Haz-Mat incident commander (certified but not as qualified) and confined space rescue technician. I have also had quite a bit of education in risk management. Without going into too much detail there are three ways to deal with risk. Risk avoidance, risk transfer, and risk mitigation. Risk avoidance is obvious, don't do what is unsafe. Risk transfer it sounds like what your bosses did and passed it down to you. Finally, risk mitigation is "what can I do to make this safe?" If you choose not to avoid this risk then this is your only choice, obviously. Though it is situation dependent, there are some common things you need to make it resonably safe. I say resonable because there is still gonna be risk involved, but we need to find an accpetable level of risk.

to make it acceptable safe you have already said you need SCBA, but you also need air monitoring equipment and ventilation. Maybe supplying vent air will make the environment safe enough. Having a rescue team ready is good, but they need to be qualified and have all the right equipment. Most confined space deaths are would be rescuers.

It sounds like 70F100 has a lot of expertise in this field as well, but I want to exten the same offer he did. If you would like any additional help from me feel free to PM me. Good luck with your problem. I would add that if your company refuses to be safe, I would probably push the issue until they fire me. If they didn't that is good, but its not worth life or limb. And if they don't want to be safe now, they probably want to cut corners every other time in the future. I would be looking for a new gig.

[Whateverman]

around here you have the right to refuse unsafe work ,if they fire you because you won't do something unsafe you can go to the labour relations board for a hearing and then the company generally ends up coughing up a whack of $$$$$$$$$

A safe work enviroment? Sounds like commie talk to me.

yes comrade
.... not so much commie as canadian,eh? .. up here we all pay into our "free" healthcare system,so the powers that be try to eliminate unneccessary usage of that service....

it doesn't really stop employers from trying to cut corners by endangering workers,but it does give some sort of protection (albeit not much) for the workers when they are getting pressured to do something sketchy

i've been told to do a good number of things that were not even close to safe (when i was to young to know any better),thankfully i'm still here today to stop the young guys from getting pushed into doing unsafe crap themselves


-oh and i should mention that you actually have to PROVE it is unsafe to do whatever they wanted you to do if you do go to labour relations

[tmcalavy]

Well, I'm a jaded old fart so to me this sounds like the first good work you did for them was a test...leading up to the possible work that is bugging you...you corrected the first stuff, now the really unsafe stuff is ready for your capable hands...if you go that route. If you don't, they'll can your arse and hire another cause they had many apply right? If you do, they'll keep coming back to you to do other stuff whenever they want to scrimp on safety costs...so it's really a no-win situation. You've got to follow your heart and principles here, even though jobs are scarce right now. I know cause I'm currently looking for work too. Got downsized in 08 cause I wouldn't play ball with folks who are still stealing from the state and recently lost my teaching contract cause I insisted on having some grade standards for my students...won't give anyone an A just cause of their color/religion, etc. Take care and follow your heart and good sense.

[basketcase0302]

Thanks for the sound advise guys. I've for the most part, always felt comfortable with what the majority here thinks. This will play out through the course of next week, and I will be the little "David" fighting "Goliath" here so it is a no-win situation either way I choose. Totally agree that big brother will find some poor soul who has no choice but to put their life in harm's way for the paycheck.
Me...I have a 20 year old Son that might just need his ol' man around a little longer.

[hazelnut]

Heres what happined to me about 10 years ago. I was working at a nuclear power station and when the plant was down for refueling and maintaince the big wigs thought they had a problem with one of the hot legs coming from the reactor. High radiaton levels would be a understatement, Less than 5 foot from the reactor. I was chosen to go have a look and see if i could find anything. My background, Im a pipefitter. The hot leg, Its a pipe. In thier eyes i was the man for the job I didnt want to go and let it be known that i didnt want to go. But was told by my bosses how much radiaton they have been exsposed to and protections would be in place. There idea of protection is a lead curtin if you need a rest to walk over and stand behind help shield me from radiation. There is no protection from radiation when your in a hole and 2 foot from a 9+ REM (very high radiation) pipe. Long story short i refused because i dont want to be around something thats putting out that kind of radiation. 3 months later i was part of a reduction of force. Looking back now i dont have any second guesses about taking the stand i took. Do what you feel is right for you, Your butt is on the line not thiers.

[basketcase0302]

Do what you feel is right for you, Your butt is on the line not theirs.

is probably exactly what I'll do.
I would like to be around to see if I have Grand-kids someday.
Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Times have been tough for me the past few years with some health issues, and the "Big D". It now appears that those times are not done with me just yet...

[Swegner99]

Well I sincerely hope that things work out well for you, whichever path it takes. Times are tough for everybody and its nice to know you have a place to turn for support, even if it is just sitting in front of a keyboard,