proportioning valve

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ultraranger
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by ultraranger »

sargentrs wrote:Thanks for the lesson, Steve! So, to us laymen, if we've swapped over to front disc brakes from a '74 (like me), we should source a proportioning valve for a '73+ with disc/drum and the equivalent m/c? If unable to find one, the same '73 Mustang disc/drum prop valve would work too? This is one of the big gaping holes in my swap that I have yet to get a definitive answer.
A '74 2WD Ford F100 would have had the cast iron Kelsey-Hayes metering, pressure differential, proportioning valve, like I posted a picture and Ford diagram of in my previous post.

A Mustang disc/drum brake valve would not have the same proportioning valve spring rate in it as a valve for a Ford truck. An early Mustang would be lighter than a (heavier) truck. Proportioning in a Mustang integrated disc/drum valve would come on before the proportioning rate would, on an integrated disc/drum brake valve for a truck.

If you're gathering brake parts/components from a Dentside truck, it's better to stick with like series --get the brake parts from a Dentside F100/F150 if you are putting them on a Bumpside F100. The Bumpsides of like series and size with a Dentside donor of like series and size will be close to the correct weight the valves are designed to work with. A Dentside F250/F350 will have a slightly different proportioning calibration for a heavier truck.

Most MCs for F100 Bumpside and Dentside trucks, manual or power brakes, will have a 1.00" bore diameter. Some of the F250 and F350 trucks with dual diaphragm boosters had MCs with a 1-1/4" bore diameter. The larger the MC bore diameter, the more volume of fluid it will displace but, it will generate less pressure output than a smaller MC bore diameter. A large bore diameter will also have a very stiff pedal and you may find that it's difficult to get the truck to stop within a reasonable distance, if trying to use a large MC bore diameter with just a single diaphragm brake booster.

If the MC bore diameter is greater than 1.00", you would be much better off to have a dual diaphragm booster rather than a single diaphragm.

Brake engineers design the collective brake components to operate together as a system for a specific vehicle application. However, when you break the various components down, the MC is just a manually-operated hydraulic pump. It doesn't know what type of brakes you have. A given bore diameter is going to generate a given amount of output pressure, dependent on how much force you apply to the brake pedal.

A brake booster also doesn't know what type of brakes you have on the vehicle. In simple terms, it's just a force multiplier. It's going to multiply the output force, relative to how much force you put on the brake pedal. It takes a lesser input force (compared to what it would take with manual brakes) and multiplies the output force being applied to the brakes.
Steve

1969 SWB F100 Ranger. 240-6, C-4, 9" N-case 31-spline Traction-Lok w/3.50 gears.

1968 Mustang. My high school car. Owned since 1982.

2003 Azure Blue Mustang Mach1.
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sargentrs
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by sargentrs »

Thanks for the info, Steve!
Randy
1970 F100 Sport Custom Limited LWB, 302cid, 3 on the tree. NO A/C, NO P/S, NO P/B. Currently in 1000 pcs while rebuilding. Project thread: http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... 22&t=59995 Plan: 351w, C4, LSD, pwr front disc, p/s, a/c, bucket seats, new interior and paint.
1987 F-150 XLT Lariat, 5.0/C6 auto.
ultraranger
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by ultraranger »

sargentrs wrote:Thanks for the info, Steve!
You're welcome, Randy.

Do you have a brake booster or, plan to run one?
Last edited by ultraranger on Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve

1969 SWB F100 Ranger. 240-6, C-4, 9" N-case 31-spline Traction-Lok w/3.50 gears.

1968 Mustang. My high school car. Owned since 1982.

2003 Azure Blue Mustang Mach1.
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sargentrs
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by sargentrs »

Plan on it. Still haven't decided on an MC/Booster combo yet but I'll probably just go aftermarket. I have this prop valve bookmarked for later. http://www.carolinaclassictrucks.com/Fo ... valve.html I do have my booster brackets painted and ready to install. Probably one of the final things I do. No sense installing the calipers or the MC and just let them sit and rust. I'll acquire and mount those right before I install my engine, whenever I get that done.
Randy
1970 F100 Sport Custom Limited LWB, 302cid, 3 on the tree. NO A/C, NO P/S, NO P/B. Currently in 1000 pcs while rebuilding. Project thread: http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... 22&t=59995 Plan: 351w, C4, LSD, pwr front disc, p/s, a/c, bucket seats, new interior and paint.
1987 F-150 XLT Lariat, 5.0/C6 auto.
ultraranger
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by ultraranger »

sargentrs wrote:Plan on it. Still haven't decided on an MC/Booster combo yet but I'll probably just go aftermarket. I have this prop valve bookmarked for later. http://www.carolinaclassictrucks.com/Fo ... valve.html I do have my booster brackets painted and ready to install. Probably one of the final things I do. No sense installing the calipers or the MC and just let them sit and rust. I'll acquire and mount those right before I install my engine, whenever I get that done.
If you already have the booster brackets (and the hard plastic boot that goes between the booster and the firewall), this booster (in the flowing link) will be a nice addition. It is the same identical OEM dual diaphragm Bendix booster I have on my '69 F100.

http://m.oreillyauto.com/mt/www.oreilly ... &ppt=C0066

Aftermarket boosters just don't work as well as an OEM brake booster. An OEM booster will almost always outperform an aftermarket booster.

I don't know what type MC you intend to use (conventional cast iron type or, a modern aluminum type (?). Whatever the case, I would recommend getting a brand new MC and NOT a rebuilt unit. Rebuilds have a track record for a high failure rate.

For a conventional cast iron MC, this would be a good one to use with the dual diaphragm brake booster. ('78/'79 F250 1-1/16" bore).

http://m.oreillyauto.com/mt/www.oreilly ... &ppt=C0066


This is the 'modern' MC I have on my F100 (1995 Ford Explorer 1-1/16" bore). --doesn't rust, inside or out and doesn't require removal of the cap to see how much brake fluid is inside.

http://m.napaonline.com/parts/PartsDeta ... 0498091275


The brake valve you linked to is a reproduction of the Weatherhead valve that was originally installed on GM vehicles. Weatherhead also manufactured a very similar style brake valve for Ford and other auto manufacturers of the time. The reproduction brake valve is very similar to the OEM NOS brake valve I have on my truck for an '84 model Ford truck.

The plastic brake pressure warning switch on the reproduction GM brake valve is not the same as the one on the Ford Weatherhead valve. The reproduction valve will come with a connector/wiring pigtail. You will have to connect this into the brake warning light circuit connector on your truck.

A '68-up Ford brake warning light circuit has two wires ('67 Fords only had one wire). The GM reproduction valve connector only has one wire. --you can use a bullet terminal to connect the reproduction valve wiring pigtail into the Bumpside main wiring harness, without butchering/cutting your original wiring.

http://www.fordification.com/tech/wirin ... glight.jpg
Steve

1969 SWB F100 Ranger. 240-6, C-4, 9" N-case 31-spline Traction-Lok w/3.50 gears.

1968 Mustang. My high school car. Owned since 1982.

2003 Azure Blue Mustang Mach1.
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sargentrs
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by sargentrs »

ultraranger wrote:(and the hard plastic boot that goes between the booster and the firewall)
That's a stumbling block for me. Don't have one and can't seem to find one. I'll have to improvise somehow.

http://m.oreillyauto.com/mt/www.oreilly ... &ppt=C0066
Thanks for the link! Bookmarked for future purchase.

For a conventional cast iron MC, this would be a good one to use with the dual diaphragm brake booster. ('78/'79 F250 1-1/16" bore).
http://m.oreillyauto.com/mt/www.oreilly ... &ppt=C0066

This is the 'modern' MC I have on my F100 (1995 Ford Explorer 1-1/16" bore). --doesn't rust, inside or out and doesn't require removal of the cap to see how much brake fluid is inside.
http://m.napaonline.com/parts/PartsDeta ... 0498091275
Is the new style a bolt in with the above booster and is the push rod compatible or are any mods required? I'd love to go with that, so much cleaner.

The reproduction brake valve is very similar to the OEM NOS brake valve I have on my truck for an '84 model Ford truck.
Do you happen to have the part number or a link to the '84 valve you mentioned? I'd prefer to stay Ford.

The GM reproduction valve connector only has one wire. --you can use a bullet terminal to connect the reproduction valve wiring pigtail into the Bumpside main wiring harness, without butchering/cutting your original wiring. http://www.fordification.com/tech/wirin ... glight.jpg
Thanks for that info, Steve!
Sorry for the hijack, jeff! I've been confused on this aspect of my project for a long time now.
Randy
1970 F100 Sport Custom Limited LWB, 302cid, 3 on the tree. NO A/C, NO P/S, NO P/B. Currently in 1000 pcs while rebuilding. Project thread: http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... 22&t=59995 Plan: 351w, C4, LSD, pwr front disc, p/s, a/c, bucket seats, new interior and paint.
1987 F-150 XLT Lariat, 5.0/C6 auto.
ultraranger
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by ultraranger »

sargentrs wrote:
ultraranger wrote:(and the hard plastic boot that goes between the booster and the firewall)
That's a stumbling block for me. Don't have one and can't seem to find one. I'll have to improvise somehow.

http://m.oreillyauto.com/mt/www.oreilly ... &ppt=C0066
Thanks for the link! Bookmarked for future purchase.

For a conventional cast iron MC, this would be a good one to use with the dual diaphragm brake booster. ('78/'79 F250 1-1/16" bore).
http://m.oreillyauto.com/mt/www.oreilly ... &ppt=C0066

This is the 'modern' MC I have on my F100 (1995 Ford Explorer 1-1/16" bore). --doesn't rust, inside or out and doesn't require removal of the cap to see how much brake fluid is inside.
http://m.napaonline.com/parts/PartsDeta ... 0498091275
Is the new style a bolt in with the above booster and is the push rod compatible or are any mods required? I'd love to go with that, so much cleaner.

The reproduction brake valve is very similar to the OEM NOS brake valve I have on my truck for an '84 model Ford truck.
Do you happen to have the part number or a link to the '84 valve you mentioned? I'd prefer to stay Ford.

The GM reproduction valve connector only has one wire. --you can use a bullet terminal to connect the reproduction valve wiring pigtail into the Bumpside main wiring harness, without butchering/cutting your original wiring. http://www.fordification.com/tech/wirin ... glight.jpg
Thanks for that info, Steve!
Sorry for the hijack, jeff! I've been confused on this aspect of my project for a long time now.

I'm not certain if there's a reproduction plastic boot available for these boosters. You would likely have to source it from a wrecking yard donor truck. They are the same from '68 Bumpsides through the Dentsides. Otherwise, as you said, you'll have to make something.

The 1995 Explorer MC is a direct bolt-on to the booster --No booster input/output rod modifications (other than the booster's adjustable output rod tip needs to be set for the depth at the back of the MC). The only thing the '95 Explorer MC requires are metric bubble flares on the hard lines (at the MC) and bubble flare fittings for the two ports --one M10 x 1.0 fitting and one M12 x 1.0 fitting. These fittings can be purchased through Classic Tube. --the M10 x 1.0 fitting is p/n ST8036. The M12 x 1.0 fitting is p/n ST8040.

If you want to put gravel guard over your brake lines, Classic Tube sells it by the foot (comes in up to about 20' max continous lengths). For 3/16" brake tubing, it's p/n AG14350E.

My brake valve is an original Ford part that I had bought on eBay. It's mounted in my truck and I can't see the number on it. One number for a similar Ford/Weatherhead valve for a '75 Dentside is D5TA-2B328-C1A. Green Sales, Rear Counter or NOS Parts Ltd. MIGHT have an NOS Ford disc/drum valve. You would just have to check with them.
Steve

1969 SWB F100 Ranger. 240-6, C-4, 9" N-case 31-spline Traction-Lok w/3.50 gears.

1968 Mustang. My high school car. Owned since 1982.

2003 Azure Blue Mustang Mach1.
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sargentrs
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by sargentrs »

Thanks for all the info, Steve! And thanks for letting me ride along, jeff!
Randy
1970 F100 Sport Custom Limited LWB, 302cid, 3 on the tree. NO A/C, NO P/S, NO P/B. Currently in 1000 pcs while rebuilding. Project thread: http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... 22&t=59995 Plan: 351w, C4, LSD, pwr front disc, p/s, a/c, bucket seats, new interior and paint.
1987 F-150 XLT Lariat, 5.0/C6 auto.
ultraranger
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by ultraranger »

sargentrs wrote:Thanks for all the info, Steve! And thanks for letting me ride along, jeff!
In digging through my notes, I see that I did write down the engineering number for the Ford brake valve I have on my '69 F100. It's E4TZ2B257B. It's for '84-'86 F150 2WD/4WD and '84-'86 Broncos.

This valve, currently on eBay, has the same number on the Ford logo box as what was on the box my valve came in.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/272042226901
Steve

1969 SWB F100 Ranger. 240-6, C-4, 9" N-case 31-spline Traction-Lok w/3.50 gears.

1968 Mustang. My high school car. Owned since 1982.

2003 Azure Blue Mustang Mach1.
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sargentrs
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Re: proportioning valve

Post by sargentrs »

Thanks, Steve! Just what I needed.
Randy
1970 F100 Sport Custom Limited LWB, 302cid, 3 on the tree. NO A/C, NO P/S, NO P/B. Currently in 1000 pcs while rebuilding. Project thread: http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... 22&t=59995 Plan: 351w, C4, LSD, pwr front disc, p/s, a/c, bucket seats, new interior and paint.
1987 F-150 XLT Lariat, 5.0/C6 auto.
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