"Better" tranny.

[robroy]

Car 4 speed would be nice, NV4500 is a waste of money IMHO (I had one behind my 390 for 40K). NV4500's have horrible ratios

Hi AverageF250, the NV4500 looks pretty interesting. Did you find the spread between the ratios too wide? Or were they all too low or too high? What was undesirable about them?

Other than the ratios, how did the transmission feel to shift? Did it shift smoothly at high RPM?

Thanks very much for your advice,
-Robroy

[Dragon]

I used a Dodge 2500 V10 at work with a NV4500HD and it shifted just fine under a full load of 1 ton. I never needed 1st as even it is too low most times but 2nd to 5th was nice especially 5th with 4.10s It purred at 75. Still got 9mpg.

Now as for the grease being expensive I use Amsoil and I paid less than 10 a quart for MTG grade pure Synthetic. P.S. It is much slicker than the standard grease for the NP435. So much so that my NP435 is getting the MTG put in it.

[Dragon]

The NV4500 ratios are pretty bad. 1st through 4th are identicle to a granny 4 speed so there isn't a whole lot of complaining there, but a .73 overdrive is stupid for a carburated gas engine powered old truck. There is a huge jump between 4th and 5th. Older carb engines do not lug like modern EFI and diesel stuff does. These old engines prefer to cruise at 2200-2500 RPM.

What it boils down to is you will have $1500+ into putting an NV4500 into an old truck if you get great deals on the parts. Old trucks don't need overdrive behind an FE engine. 3 gears is plenty.

I cruise with a NP 435 and 3.78s at 75 at almost 3700 so where are you getting 2200. I would love to get 2200 rpm at 75 so a NV4500 in 5th takes my 3.78s and turns them into 2.75s. The ratio drop in 5th turns me at 2700 rpm. The Ratios in a NV4500 fit me really well, less rpm drop between gears than a NP435 so when I am peddle to the metal my engine drops less for a better run. The HD that comes from High Impact fits our Fords with out all the hassles you are telling us about.

I can tell you didn't read High Impact's Website link before you started tearing into me with your superior knowledge. As for the High cost of Oil, my Rear End uses Amsoil 75-90 Pure Synth oil. My tranny now has the same. At 11.20 a quart I am getting Long Life Synthetic Gear Lube SAE 75W-90 (FGR) so the lube NV4500 is a steal at a dollar more for MTG.

High Impact solved the problems you are talking about.

[averagef250]

I am familiar with high impact. I'm sure if you call them and ask them about putting an NV4500HD behind anything other than a Cummins or V10 they will tell you you'll have to switch the input just as I've said. The NV4500 is a "heavy duty" 5 speed, but there are light duty and HD versions of it. Most NV4500's made were the HD version behind the Cummins. GM did not use many of them and dodge gas applications were mostly auto.

First off, 3.78 isn't even a ratio for a Dana axle and your math is pretty fuzzy. Cruise speed is never figured for 75 MPH regardless of whether or not you actually drive there. Cruise speed is 60-65 MPH. If you have a 3.73 geared rear end and 31" tires that puts you at 3032 RPM at 75 MPH. That is EXACTLY where I would want it to be for medium towing. If you don't tow then go to 3.54's and drop your RPM's to 2878 or switch in a 70's D61 and you can run 3.08's for 2504 RPM, but that is not going to be very comfortable.

75 MPH is hauling butt. It takes considerably more power to drive 75 MPH than it does to drive 65. Brick old trucks like ours probably require 20-30 more HP to go that extra 10 MPH. I've done dozens of drivetrain repowers from early Broncos to F-800's and C65 Chevies using diesels and Ford EFI engines. I know first hand how important having the right gears effects the finished product. The weight of the vehicle, how much it's going to tow, the transmissions ratios, stick/auto all have an impact. I've found through real world trial and error that gearing a rig so the engine is in it's peak torque range at 75 MPH does not work very well. For an example; My 71 F-250 is powered by a 4 banger turbodiesel that makes about 425 lb/ft of torque at 1600 RPM, 200 HP at 2500 RPM and defuels at 3200. It's still very efficient up to about 1900 RPM, but efficiency falls off dramatically past 2000 RPM. I have no doubt in my mind the truck could easily cruise at 75 MPH at 1500 RPM if I needed it to, but in the real world it would be very uncomfortable to do so. At that RPM the engine is not making the HP to accelerate effectively and more throttle than feels right is needed to maintain speed up grades. Not to mention even though the engine makes that kind of torque down low, using it like that for sustained periods of time will pound the main bearing out of it. With the 4.10 gears and 35" tires the truck currently has and a close ratio 5 speed with a .8 over it does 75 MPH at 2362 RPM. 2300 RPM is way past the efficiency range of the engine, but it's still very comfortable to cruise at. If I had the same truck with an FE or a 300 six I'd want the engine to turn 2800-3000 at 75 MPH to give equivelent power of the diesel.

[Dragon]

First off, 3.78 isn't even a ratio for a Dana axle and your math is pretty fuzzy. Cruise speed is never figured for 75 MPH regardless of whether or not you actually drive there. Cruise speed is 60-65 MPH. If you have a 3.73 geared rear end and 31" tires that puts you at 3032 RPM at 75 MPH. That is EXACTLY where I would want it to be for medium towing. If you don't tow then go to 3.54's and drop your RPM's to 2878 or switch in a 70's D61 and you can run 3.08's for 2504 RPM, but that is not going to be very comfortable.

The tag on my Rear ends says 3.78 on a Dana 60. The RPM range I want on the highway at 75 is 2500. Re-gearing the rear end is not an option I am interested in because I do not tow heavy equipment at 75 but I do run to jobs at 75. I am interested in torque in town and better mileage on the highway. 5th or Overdrive is the only way I want to go.

The truck is not a Daily driver but a 32000 mile a year minimum work truck that starts at 6 or 7 in the morning and sometimes does not get shut off until 7 at night. I can average 30 highway miles some days and easily 30 in town miles everyday.

[averagef250]

That last 8 is a 3. 3.73 is the ratio.

3.73 gears, 31" tires and a .73 NV4500 overdrive puts you at 2213 RPM at 75 MPH. Go ahead and give it whirl, but I gaurantee you'll be sorely disappointed. If you go 4.10's you'll be happier with the NV4500's 5th, but you'll be grabbing 3rd gear immediately after getting rolling.

My 70 F-250 had a nicely built 390 mated to an NV4500 with 4.10 gears and 35" tires. That made for 2155 at 75. I hated it. The engine did not have the nuts to pull 5th gear comfortably. I was constantly hunting between 4th and 5th on the freeway.


I hope I'm not coming off as some sort of jerk. I just hope whoever reads this stuff takes the time to really dissect their drivetrain and gets the notion that overdrive is automatically better out of their head. Everything has to work together.

The NV4500 has an unjust following in my opinion. They are good, but they aren't THAT good. They're the only modern 5 speed with a removeable bellhousing, other than that they have no redeeming qualities in my eyes. They do not adapt well into a Ford.

If you want to save a mountain of cash and have a better transmission buy an 87-98 small block ZF 5 speed. Pull it down, take the forward case half to a job shop and have them cut the bellhousing off and weld a 3/4" aluminum plate with holes to bolt up to your stock FE bellhousing. Drill the bellhousing holes out and bolt the transmission up from inside the bellhousing. You can do the same thing with the M5R2 if you don't need granny or a real HD tranny. The M5R2 also has a much more streetable .8 over.

[Dragon]

That last 8 is a 3. 3.73 is the ratio.

3.73 gears, 31" tires and a .73 NV4500 overdrive puts you at 2213 RPM at 75 MPH. Go ahead and give it whirl, but I gaurantee you'll be sorely disappointed. If you go 4.10's you'll be happier with the NV4500's 5th, but you'll be grabbing 3rd gear immediately after getting rolling.

My tires are 285/85-16 and with 3.73s I spin 3400 to 3500 on my tach at 70 I will take my chances at 2213 as my engine is built for low end torque and being built for even more low end. I am not going for 5000+ but 4000 Max. Yes a diesel would do the trick but I am not even slightly interested in noisy rattle rattle engines. Give me a FE with Crower Torque cam and low compression then every thing else tuned for that speed range and I am happy.

[averagef250]

Not sure where you got 285/85's, but that would be a tire that's over 35" tall! Maybe you have 235/85R16"s??? That would be a little more realistic or you have 285/75's?

Any way you slice it, you're running atleast a 31" tire. Either your tach is magic, you're running in 3rd gear or the tag on your rear end is way off and you actually have 4.56 gears in there.

I made no recommendation you go diesel. Not sure where the idea I did came from, but I respect everyones engine preferences. I'd take a nice 428 4 speed in a heartbeat, but like you sir, I also use the tires off my truck with nearly 25K miles on my 71 since I started driving it this last March. That little rattletrap diesel actually runs superb, is simpler than a briggs and stratton, burns darn near anything for fuel, gets a 25 MPG running mileage average, only needs an oil change every 10K miles and will keep up with most big blocks with twice the cubic inches towing heavy trailers. I'm happy with it. The pro's more than make up for the rattle rattle (though all I really hear is turbo whine).

[Dragon]

Not sure where you got 285/85's, but that would be a tire that's over 35" tall! Maybe you have 235/85R16"s??? That would be a little more realistic or you have 285/75's?

The tires are from A to Z Truck tire shop, Yep about 35.2 inches tall enough to get through the ridiculous mud here by being thin enough to sink down to the hard pack under the mud.

Maybe I should have counted teeth the last time my rear cover was off. Since the Truck was originally a 360 C6 Sport Custom and when I got it was a 65 car 390 and NP435. My engine is really spinning way to fast on the highway at 70. When I got the truck it had car tires and even though it had all my tools and parts in the back it did something weird. I got past the Looky Lues at an accident and in 2nd I punched it while rolling and thought the clutch gave up because the engine revved up faster than the truck moved. Next thing I know the truck rear is sliding sideways and smoke is coming off both rear wheels. Top speed with those tires 65 mph. That is when I went to get the tires from A to Z. My speedo was way off when I got the truck too and with the tall tires I am off by 1 mph. SO maybe they did rebuild the rear end. The original owner hauled a Full size camper and 22 foot fiberglass cruiser boat with the truck. The truck was registered with the Forestry Service from 1971 until 2001, Lifetime pass.

It isn't just the rattle of diesels but the drone on the Highways has almost put me to sleep. A drone that is not in a gas engine sonics. I had a diesel Ford and Dodge they both did it to me.

[willowbilly3]

There are many transmissions, each with it's own strengths and weaknesses, and followers.
I don't know many people who grenaded NV4500s that drove them sensibly but the advent of the 5.9 Cummins and people started using their pickups like they were a 10 ton Peterbuilt and towing 30,000 loads, trust me they will explode if you do that. Sure a lot of them will break, considering how many were made and how many were mis used/abused. I have only drove them in Chevys and they seem fairly user friendly.
The granny trannys were put into pickups back when people actually used a pickup for work. When I was a kid we routinely hauled 2 ton loads on a half ton pickup and you need granny.
I disagree that a 390 only needs 3 gears. If you tow anything you constantly have to over rev so the next gear can take it. I came over the pass into Denver with a car on the trailer and it was low gear (not granny) all the way (miles and miles) because third just couldn't quite cut it. 3 is enough just driving around empty but not for any kind of towing.
The RUG toploader is a choice to consider if you can find a wide ratio. I don't think you would want the close ratio

[Dragon]

The RUG Wide is only wide between 1st and 2nd to get the racers moving quicker then where you needed to stay on the power when pushing wind the Toploader was close closer than anyone else's in the day so you stayed in the power curve on the top end between 3rd and 4th.

I was leaning towards the ranger overdrive but after doing the math the gearing is too tall for easy town work when in overdrive between 2nd and 3rd. Then 3rd to 4th the Ranger had to be dropped out or the engine would fall on its face.

[willowbilly3]

I said this before, the 3-4 split on the Ranger, right where you rally need it, isn't optimum. 3rd and over isn't enough different than 4th direct to even bother with that split.
I would look into a gear vendors.

[Jake11]

The D60 has a 3.73 gear. With 32" tires I get about 2500rpm at 65. T18 granny. FYI.
Jake

[ares360]

My best friend (who's mother, stepfather, and he is a Ford Master Mechanic), has a 65' f100 with a 352 FE. He got a NV4500 and bolted it up. He would take that tranny over any 3-speed any day. As soon as the budget allows, the old is out, the new is in for me.

Sometimes original isn't going to stay the best...sorry

[kaptnkaos]

Personally, I wouldn't have anything but an NP435 in my '68 CS...
I regularly haul a 1700lb 9.5' cab over on with my truck... there are times and places that nothing else would do.

Click on pic to enlarge...

The best choice really depends what you plan on doing with your truck, and how you plan on driving it.
If you have an F-100 and gonna drive it like a car, you can use a top loader 4 speed outta a car with an fe engine.
But for and F-250/F-350, you can't beat ans Np435 IMHO.

KaptnKA S