OT - OBDII readiness rant...

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crewcabfan
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by crewcabfan »

chimming in again :)
looking at the O2 capture trace i'm inclined to think that the rear sensor is shot but i wouldn't rush to that descision without knowing what the time base is in your graphic.
without sounding like a knowitall: what O2 sensors measure is the content of oxigen in the exhaust stream, the less oxigen the higher the voltage output typically 0.9 volt, the more oxigen
the lower the output 0.1 volt the cycling usually 2-5 times per second . based on this, the 2 usptream sensors are working fine ( considering that the time frame is 1 second per division) so is the fuel control.
Now, the rear O2 works just the same as the front ones except this one is used by the computer to monitor catalyst efficiency (based on the convertor's oxigen storage capacity).
the rear sensor should read high when the converter is storing oxigen and low when releasing it. [ok pause...... this is very hard for me to explain because i'm a very slow typer (it has taken me 10 minutes to write this so far) ] i'd like to see the rear sensor hanging around 700mv and switching at a ratio of at least 1:5 . i would also interpret that graph like an exhaust leak between the upstream and downstream sensors.
Ducky, call me i'll :? :? confuse you even more . :lol:
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by DuckRyder »

Todays update:

Cleaned EGR ports, there was nothing wrong with them.
Inspected plugs, there was nothing wrong with them.

Both the EGR ports and Plugs were done under a Honda "special policy" related to Honda settling a lawsuit with the US EPA at 98,000 miles. The rear O2 sensor was replaced at 68,000 miles because it set a heater code, the front sensors have never been replaced.

Additionally, I can cause the engine to idle rough by actuating the EGR, so we know there is flow.

Cleaned the PCV valve with TB cleaner (it didn't seem to rattle very well, it does now).
Cleaned engine compartment (it didn't meet my approval)
Removed battery, cleaned cables and post, touched cables together and reinstalled after being disconnected for an hour.

I talked to crewcabfan.

I took another scope trace at cruise speed, I'm not sure what is up with the O2 but the rear O2 seems to go high or no real in between, idling in park or neutral it looks like yesterday, in gear it looks (more) like what crewcab is describing.

I can't get an exact read on the scale, but based on my 1-onethousand-1, 1-onethousand-2 count I'd say yesterdays was more like 3-5 seconds per graph line, I sped it up and the wave forms are very choppy, this is a software scope in the scanner, so I think this may be a limitation of the programs sample rate.

The last time I did much with O2 sensors they all had one wire and no one had heard of putting one after the cat, so I'm far from an expert, but based on my conversation with crewcabfan and these scope traces, I'm inclined to replace all 3 sensors...somebody talk me out of (or into) it...

Stand by for the trace...

:?
Robert
1972 F100 Ranger XLT (445/C6/9” 3.50 Truetrac)

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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by DuckRyder »

OH,

Bank 1 short term trim is hovering around 0%, Bank 2 short term trim is hovering around 3.0% long term trim os 0% both banks (this after the battery was disconnected)..

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Robert
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by DuckRyder »

Also, this may be of interest:

http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds/tour/obd-2.html

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-scope/index.html

When I try to run mode 6 test VCDS reports "not supported by control module" and mode 5 data is all grayed out and says "N/A".
Robert
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by DuckRyder »

Todays update:

3 Denso OE Identical O2 Sensors Ordered...
Robert
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by rjewkes »

Will watch to see how it turns out. no expert here on the 02's either.
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by DuckRyder »

800 plus mile trip to Orlando, still not ready. (on the old O2 sensors)

I hope the new sensoers will arrive today, if not probably Monday. Keep your fingers crossed for me...
Robert
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by DuckRyder »

Replaced the rear sensor and did 2 freeway drive cycles - not ready.

Replaced both front sensors and did 2 freeway drive cycles - not ready.

Incidentally, my idea of "identical" and Denso's idea of "identical" are two very different things...

To Denso it means "roughly the same length, with a sensor that screws into the hole and a plug that plugs into the harness omitting all bushings and grommets in between except the one that keeps water out of the floor board and you have to tape that one on".

If this thing doesn't set ready tomorrow I'm probably going to have to take it to the dealer...

Edit: Oh, and I did check for cracks/holes/air leaks in the exhaust and could not find any.
Robert
1972 F100 Ranger XLT (445/C6/9” 3.50 Truetrac)

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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by DuckRyder »

Hmmm...

The calculated load value looks out of whack to me - above 30% at idle in neutral or in gear (between 45-50% at steady cruise ~20% throttle), the IMAP data looks roughly O.K.... can't find any VAC leaks...

Acura dealer is going to take a look tomorrow, I'm hopeful that with their tool and experience with what the readings should be something will jump right out and we can fix it and get on with life...
Robert
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"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -- Jeff Cooper
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by NM5K »

Dang.. Too bad the sensors didn't do the trick. I can't really guess what else might be causing it.
You would think it would throw a code if a sensor or whatever was bad. But still, I'm still kind of
thinking a lack of some type of feedback would be the likely cause. Unless the ECU itself has gone
flaky in some way..
Maybe with all their scan tools, etc they can pin down the problem. I guess with the new front O2
sensors, you might get a tad better mpg if the others were kind of old. So maybe not a total
waste on that, even if they didn't cure the problem.
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by DuckRyder »

It gets HORRID fuel mileage...seriously, I might as well drive the truck, it gets 19mpg...
Robert
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by NM5K »

Wonder if it's actually going into closed loop? Seems an Acura should do a bit better than that.
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by binder56jd »

after all you have done---i wonder if the wiring harness has gone south---the 89 1 ton i have drove myself and 2 different mechanics nuts--sometime later 1 of the mechanics came across the same problem in a similar truck---put a new wiring harness in it and solved the problem--i had already eliminated my problem with a swap to carb--but it was a good bit of knowledge
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by DuckRyder »

I thought it should do better too, but looked it up on fueleconomy.gov and I guess that is what they get... :( It is a big car but still.

It is going into closed loop.

Now for my mini rant -

Can any one explain to me how a car with:
  1. NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT
  2. NO CODES according to 3 scanners (the states, mine and another I borrowed)
Has a freaking EGR Lift Code when it gets to the dealer? :x

I PROMISE the check engine light was not on when I parked it in the service drive and there were no DTCs current or pending as of last night....

I left it there and they are going to put an EGR on it and set the readiness tomorrow, lets hope that takes care of it! :pray:

Here is the last LOG I saved:
Tuesday,02,November,2010,12:43:37:17292
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1 (x64)
Data version: 20100831


Mode 01 - PID 01 : Readiness -- Address 0E

Number of DTCs stored: 0 -- MIL Status: MIL OFF
Misfire monitoring: Passed
Fuel System: Passed
Comprehensive Components: Passed
Catalyst monitoring: Failed or Incomplete
Heated catalyst monitoring: Not installed.
Evaporative system monitoring: Passed
Secondary air system monitoring: Not installed.
A/C system refrigerant monitoring: Not installed.
Oxygen sensor monitoring: Failed or Incomplete
Oxygen sensor heater monitoring: Passed
Exhaust Gas Recirculation: Failed or Incomplete

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mode 07: Pending emission related fault codes

No fault code found.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mode 03: Emission related fault codes

Address 0E: No fault code found.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tuesday,02,November,2010,12:45:39
VCDS Release 10.6.1 (x64): Generic OBD2
Mode 1:Read Data

21:Bank 1 Sensor 2 Status 0.840 V -3.91 %(lean)
20:Bank 1 Sensor 1 Status 0.200 V -2.34 %(lean)
24:Bank 2 Sensor 1 Status 0.580 V -1.56 %(lean)
05:Engine coolant temperature 86 °C
Robert
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"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -- Jeff Cooper
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Re: OT - OBDII readiness rant...

Post by NM5K »

Dunno. Pretty weird. The only thing I could think of is maybe Acura is using some kind of weird proprietary
EGR code, and the other scanners didn't see it due to looking for a slightly different type of EGR fault.
Hard to say, I don't know about the various OBDII differences. I've never actually had to work on ODBII
yet as my present car is the first to have it, and I haven't had to work on it yet..
All the stuff I had to work on were older versions. I didn't even need a scanner on those.. Just count
blinks, etc..
But I know some have confusion on the codes. IE: when I first bought the present car, I had a problem
with a gas nozzle shutting off, and it overflowed the filler. Which flooded the evap canister and eventually
set an evap code. I took it to autozone and scanned it, and saw the code. I then took it over to the place
I bought it, and they didn't even show a listing for that specific code. But I got back home and found it on
the web. But in doing that, I saw that a lot of the companies are using several different code numbers to
flash for basically the same type of fault. I figured out that it was the overfilling that caused the problem.
After the canister dried out, the evap flow was normal again, and the light went out on it's own.
I've heard my car do evap tests, and whatever else while it was just sitting in the garage and hadn't been
driven in a good while. :/ You can hear the slight whirring noises of the vapor pumps, or whatever it is going off..
That's been my only dealing with OBDII so far.. I'm not really complaining about the lack of activity... :lol:
I'm getting to where I don't like working on vehicles all that much any more. Or at least, I can think of
a lot of other things I'd rather do instead..
Well, hope the EGR pans out, and you can get that critter out of your hair.
1968 F-250 / 300 six / T-18
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