Is Fordification going the way of FTE?

[elgemcdlf]

I will open by stating this started in a different area. I will post everything here that has taken place so far.

[elgemcdlf]

To preface this the original post was concerning building a flatbed from scratch.

"Re: I should quit daydreaming....

Postby HIO Silver on Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:57 pm
Go over to the FTE denstide (73-79) forum. There's a flatbed thread with pics of who has one.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum38/"

"Re: I should quit daydreaming....

Postby basketcase0302 on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:39 pm

HIO Silver on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:57 pm
Go over to the FTE denstide (73-79) forum. There's a flatbed thread with pics of who has one.



No need to do that at all!
Yes there are a few of us here that have designed and built our own beds, Ryan (1971Ford) would be one. I designed and had built my dream of an aluminum flat bed, (no you don't want to know the cost either)! Suggest using the search engine and use "flatbed" or "flat bed" that'll bring up more threads than you can shake a stick at!

Not really sure what the heck is up with all the "darkside" linking lately. But once again shame on those that support that place! Please read what those clowns are really about:
http://www.fordification.com/censorship.htm"

"Re: I should quit daydreaming....

Postby elgemcdlf on Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:08 pm

basketcase0302 wrote:

HIO Silver on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:57 pm
Go over to the FTE denstide (73-79) forum. There's a flatbed thread with pics of who has one.



No need to do that at all!
Yes there are a few of us here that have designed and built our own beds, Ryan (1971Ford) would be one. I designed and had built my dream of an aluminum flat bed, (no you don't want to know the cost either)! Suggest using the search engine and use "flatbed" or "flat bed" that'll bring up more threads than you can shake a stick at!

Not really sure what the heck is up with all the "darkside" linking lately. But once again shame on those that support that place! Please read what those clowns are really about:
http://www.fordification.com/censorship.htm



I am not into getting into a war but that is 1 person's views. Even then his article clearly states freedom to post here which is what he is fighting at FTE. The FTE site has some valuable info along with this site and many others. IMHO this should be about keeping more older trucks on the road. Wouldn't that include getting accurate information wherever you may find it? Personally I could care less about any war between here and FTE. I do my best to help folks out there just like anywhere else I may be. I also glean much info there just like here. I link to Fordification at FTE just like I link from here to FTE. From what I understand the attitude displayed in your post is the very attitude the author of the article referenced as being part of the problem at FTE. I just finished walking a 19yr old through doing a CV swap on his '58. So the owners of the 2 sites are feuding I should choose 1 or the other and refuse to help anyone on the other site? I run across people all the time that have not heard of the other site, both sites. I respectfully request you rethink your position. I am confident you have much valuable information to add. If we the older do not pass on what we know to the younger what will be left of this hobby? Is either owner really that important in the overall scheme of things? Important enough to cause the slow death of our hobby?

Just for the record I ran across the exact same attitude at FTE concerning linking to Fordification. I posted an almost identical post there as well."

"Re: I should quit daydreaming....

Postby DuckRyder on Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:54 pm

elgemcdlf wrote:...Just for the record I ran across the exact same attitude at FTE concerning linking to Fordification. I posted an almost identical post there as well.



Let us know how that works out for you.

I respectfully suggest that your view of the situation might be a bit skewed, keeping in mind that apparently you haven't been banned over there for simply having an account over here, and perhaps you don't know quite so much as you think you do about it.

There is no rule against posting a link to over there but that doesn't mean that it is good form or that you should disregard the feelings of the membership here.

None of that is to say that you shouldn't try to help everyone that you can."

"Re: I should quit daydreaming....

Postby elgemcdlf on Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:22 am

DuckRyder wrote:

elgemcdlf wrote:...Just for the record I ran across the exact same attitude at FTE concerning linking to Fordification. I posted an almost identical post there as well.



Let us know how that works out for you.

I respectfully suggest that your view of the situation might be a bit skewed, keeping in mind that apparently you haven't been banned over there for simply having an account over here, and perhaps you don't know quite so much as you think you do about it.

There is no rule against posting a link to over there but that doesn't mean that it is good form or that you should disregard the feelings of the membership here.

None of that is to say that you shouldn't try to help everyone that you can.



I fail to see how my view can be skewed. I have no monetary interest in either site. I know everything I need to know about it. The matter does not concern me. Should either site decide to "ban" me for any reason I will survive just fine. It is each and every one of us that make these sites what they are. So far it has been working out just fine with exception of a few who also have no monetary interest in FTE commenting.

I still hold. The base of any of this IMHO should be keeping the hobby alive. If there be any monetary gain for anyone involved great. To ban anyone from this site for posting on another only deprives the users here of that person's knowledge. It also lowers the number of users thus making any advertising on said site less valuable. Same applies to FTE.

Both sites (along with others, Ford Truck Fanatics for 1) provide content for free. My main build thread is housed here. I link to it from everywhere when someone wants to know more about my truck. Every other site I visit out there has abbreviated versions of the thread here. Why is it someone would not want to provide another with as much information on any given subject as possible? Want to guess where I learned about the CV swap? Want to guess where the most detailed information is housed? Want to guess where I learned about the MN12 IRS install? I feel I have brought some of that knowledge here with me. I notice quite a bit more CV swaps here than when I was looking for information on IFS & IRS swaps.

Should I have posted nothing here concerning my swaps because I learned of them elsewhere? There are quite a few people who use both sites. To my knowledge there are only 2 of us that use the same login. Much of the information I have on my swaps came from older trucks not bumps. This site is devoted to bumps. Want to guess what group does the most MN12 IRS swaps? From what I have seen the '48-'52 crowd with '53-'56 being 2nd in line. Well at least the most publicized. If someone has a question and I know where they can find their answer I will provide a link for them. To me it is about you getting as much information on the subject as possible so you can make the most informed decision as possible."

"Re: I should quit daydreaming....

Postby DuckRyder on Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:37 am
It is a matter of respect and whether you have any for the membership here that feels difrently than you.

Now, howabout we get back to trucks and if you want to discuss it further PM me, Basketcase or the moderation team."

So that we have things in perspective DuckRyder is a moderator here at Fordification. Continued with a few PM's.

[elgemcdlf]

My response via PM.

Links to other sites.

Sent at: Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:53 am
From: elgemcdlf
To: DuckRyder
For the record I have read Kieth's entry that was referenced some time ago. Some excerpts.

"..."Competing services"??? Ken, I HAVE no services! Only information, nothing more. Oh, and my forum, of course....but one where we aren't being censored...."

I think this excerpt says quite a bit when he states "YOUR problems" The "war" between owners of FTE and Fordification are just that. The owners problems, not mine.

"...Ah...now we're getting to the meat of the matter!

Ken, one of the main reasons I created this web forum was because of the way you censored what was on yours. The internet (and chat forums especially) should be a free exchange of information about the topic at hand. People come to the forums to get information. They want the whole story...not what some forum host chooses to tell them. Your problems with various vendors are just that...YOUR problems. You're not only punishing the vendor in question, but the people who come to the forum, for they're not being given all the information they need to solve their problem.

My forum was created because we want to talk, for example, about:...

out in the open without fear of getting our hands slapped or our posts deleted. We want to discuss which forum participants have what good used parts for sale out in the open, without feeling like we're dealing our spare parts on the black market. We want to actually mention that some vendor who advertises on your site has something in their catalog which is substandard and should be avoided. When you attempt to CONTROL the information you present, Ken, rather than just telling it like it is and allowing the people to make up their own minds for themselves, you alienate the very people who came to you asking for help. And chances are they'll be less likely to return in the future unless as a last resort..."

Now we hit real close to what I feel is happening with Fordification. The very thing the site originator stated he did not want on his site.

"...Sorry, Ken...ain't gonna happen. I don't believe in hiding if the subject at hand is as important as this one. If I have something to say, I'll say it in an OPEN forum for all to see and read, so they can make up their own minds. Doesn't matter if the agree with me or not. I will NOT toe the line for anyone...period. If you're so worried that my little forum is that much competition for you, you really need to get a grip! That site has taken over your life, man! I'd rather stay with my own small forum, even if it doesn't have as many participants as yours, simply because the people who DO use mine are probably more apt to be genuine. They won't have to worry about pissing someone off, getting sanctioned, deleted, chastised, etc. They can speak freely and openly....within reason of course. There are always exceptions, but I don't believe this was even close..."

Is this not what you along with basketcase are attempting to do?

"... I like information. I want to know it ALL...good AND bad! It's painfully obvious, once again, that a free exchange and sharing of information is not possible at your forums. That's too bad...."

I do not believe I have been disrespectful to any member here nor the site originator. The 2 of us IMHO have different interpretations of what is posted. When I read within reason to me that would include things like personal attacks, foul language, spam advertisements and the like.

Also for the record I sent an email to admin@ fordification.com just a week or so ago outlining problems I was having with the site. They happened to be IE and not the site but I also asked for information concerning costs for commercial advertising. I have received no response to date.

If you can cite for me anything within the rules of this particular site that specifically state linking to other information is against this sites rules I will stop. If not I believe I am well within the desired guidelines that this site was established under.

"...WHERE YOU CAN SAY WHAT'S ON YOUR MIND, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER
OR NOT I OR OTHER FORUM PARTICIPANTS AGREE WITH IT!...Do you simply want to talk trucks in a relaxed environment with other Ford truck lovers, without having to watch what you say anymore?..."

I do not believe I have been disrespectful to you or anyone else on this particular site. A point to ponder: Have you and a few others actually become the very thing Keith set this site up to get away from? Attempts at censorship? These excerpts are Keith's words not my interpretations of his words. I feel I am currently in the same position as Keith was when he started this site. Difference being he was just deleted. A blatant attempt at strong arm tactics to censor what others will or will not read. I also believe as Keith states OPEN FORUM. While to continue on the thread which this started would not be correct, starting/moving the posts to a new thread would not be out of line. You may find I am not alone in what I believe or would that be a potential fear?

Have a great day,
Steve

P.S.
I am confident I can find my post on FTE stating within reason the same thing to people who think nothing should be said about Fordification. The old ostirich with his head in the sand mentality. If I don't see it then it does not exist.

[elgemcdlf]

Response from DuckRyder via PM

Re: Links to other sites.

Sent at: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:31 pm
From: DuckRyder
To: elgemcdlf
I'm not interested in debating it, I'm simply trying to explain to you that you may not have the full story, that you don't really know what happened and that you can't understand how we feel.

Whether you you feel you've disrespected anyone is not relevant, that someone felt disrespected enough to report your post (why do you think I was in a forum [body and paint] that I never visit) is relevant.

If you walked into the DNC and yelled "Go Sara Palin" you would (at least I hope you would) expect to get rebuked, yet many will feel that is essentially what you did here. Another point to consider, FTE gets revenue from it is ads and many of us don't wish for them to get any from our clicks. When you post a link to there and someone clicks it without realizing where it goes, it sorta makes them mad.

You don't need to quote anything for me since I was there, I lived it so to speak and we've been down this road many times but if you really want to go down it again you are certainly free to start a thread in general discussion and as long as it remains civil I won't close it and I'll tell the other moderators that I said that.

[DuckRyder]

Posting the contents of a PM is rude too.

This can stay open as long as it remains civil, the second it gets otherwise it is going to be locked and I'm not above handing out bans or warnings over it either.

Consider that a warning so if it happens and someone wonders "where is the warning" - this is it!

[Calfdemon]

I dont quite understand the point of this thread or why any of this is being made public. My take is that someone is upset that someone linked to FTE? I no longer use FTE and never go there out of my own experiences and my own view of the differences between Fordification and FTE. I also have read and see Keith's experiences over there. But I still would not try and influence someone elses right to visit any forum they want to, and if information is available there that helps members here, why not discuss it? If someone objected to the link or the fact that FTE was mentioned, then they need to hang out on FTE and deny the existance of this site.

I dont see the need for anyone to be told NOT to link to FTE here (unless that is Keith's wishes) because that is exactly the type of behavior that takes place at FTE. They are the ones that dont want anyone to mention Fordification (yes, I had my posts censored to remove links to this site when I first got my bump and didnt know the history).

I didnt feel like trying to comprehend everything that was going on above and try and sort out who said what, but whoever it is that is trying to tell another NOT to post a link to FTE is wrong in my opinion, unless that is what is deemed a rule by Keith or the mods. But this forum has always been about non-censorship (unless someone was being a complete tool) and truck info is truck info. So without knowing who involved said what, I am just stating that whoever it was that is trying to censor is wrong in my opinion.

[elgemcdlf]

I have a missing post from this thread. You consider posting PM's that are part of the discussion rude because? Would it be safe to say PM's are very similiar if not in the exact same category as an email? Are you saying Keith was rude when he posted the emails from Ken at FTE? Did I censor your response? Did I in any way attempt to twist your words? If it makes you feel important ban away. I made it 50 yrs before this specific site and I am confident I can make it to the end of my life without it. IMHO you have become exactly what you say FTE is. The very thing you say you champion against.

The issue Calfdemon is DuckRyder is a moderator. I believe Keith has a moderator acting in direct conflict of his wishes.

[Calfdemon]

The issue Calfdemon is DuckRyder is a moderator. I believe Keith has a moderator acting in direct conflict of his wishes.

Again, I am not going to go up and read that entire mess of text, but did a moderator of this site say you could NOT post a link to FTE? If that is what is going on here, can the moderator please enlighten everyone if there was a change in the rules of this site? That is exactly the problem that was taking place over at FTE and that has never been an issue here. So now people can not link to a post on FTE? I have never seen Keith have an issue with that and have seen many links to FTE since I have been here, and there has never been an issue before.

Granted, linking to FTE is not common and rarely necessary because this site has pretty much all the info one could ever need, but occasionally, someone posts something interesting over there that is worth sharing with others. Keith's issue was always a censorship issue, and if someone is suggesting now that we cant link to certain places with relevant information on the topics this forum deals with, then that is the very same censorship that Keith (and everyone else) is against.

So can a moderator please explain their position in this matter for the rest of us, because it is now very relevant and at least has my interest...

[elgemcdlf]

The issue Calfdemon is DuckRyder is a moderator. I believe Keith has a moderator acting in direct conflict of his wishes.

Again, I am not going to go up and read that entire mess of text, but did a moderator of this site say you could NOT post a link to FTE? If that is what is going on here, can the moderator please enlighten everyone if there was a change in the rules of this site? That is exactly the problem that was taking place over at FTE and that has never been an issue here. So now people can not link to a post on FTE? I have never seen Keith have an issue with that and have seen many links to FTE since I have been here, and there has never been an issue before.

Granted, linking to FTE is not common and rarely necessary because this site has pretty much all the info one could ever need, but occasionally, someone posts something interesting over there that is worth sharing with others. Keith's issue was always a censorship issue, and if someone is suggesting now that we cant link to certain places with relevant information on the topics this forum deals with, then that is the very same censorship that Keith (and everyone else) is against.

So can a moderator please explain their position in this matter for the rest of us, because it is now very relevant and at least has my interest...

It was not point blank said but heavily implied. Has now escalated to the point of a "threat" of banning. What would stop someone from just creating a new login? So much for the power of banning. Since I challenged that position I have been told by a moderator I have been disrespectful to members here. It is kind of like a seat belt ticket. If you refuse to pay it you will be found in contempt of court. You could actually be put in prison over not wearing a seatbelt. Same concept, "there is no rule BUT" type of thing. Heavily "hinting" to not do it.

[Calfdemon]

So since this issue now has peaked my interest and I dove into the topic, I went ahead and read everything (yeah, everything) that was posted above so I have a clear picture of what I dove into.

Duck, you clearly posted that it is NOT against the rules to post the links to FTE or talk about that site, but then in the same breath, you admonished him for doing it and suggested that he not. So posting links to FTE or talking about the site is allowed, but when someone does it, you try to get them not to? How is this not a form of censorship on your part? Granted, you did not delete the content, but trying to dissuade future comments on the subject is in the same ballpark.

While I can understand the position of a poster maybe saying that they dont like going to that other site (me being one of them), I do NOT think it was okay to then follow that up with an admonishment. If someone wants to go there and take part in both sites, good for them. If someone wants to stay away from FTE, great!! But the ones that want to stay away (me being one of them) have no right to tell someone else not to go and not to discuss things talked about over there. I am with Steve on this one (not that my word means anything) and I also think this is the exact thing that Keith is against.

Unless my view of everything posted above is also "skewed", then please enlighten me. But that is what the evidence shows. If you were not trying to censor him by keeping FTE from being mentioned or linked to on this site, then what was your purpose in responding in the manner that you did when he posted it?

[elgemcdlf]

All good. I had a rough feeling you would end up reading it all. Curiosity can be a devil can't it? DuckRyder is Robert & I am Steve but I think your position is clear. You know you are now in "trouble" too.

[robroy]

Good day,

My mind's blank when it comes to FTE so I've nothing to say regarding that.

Yet I must agree with Robert on the public posting of PMs. Once I realized that's what was going on, I skipped over those parts--I definitely don't have an interest in reading anything that wasn't intended for my eyes. I don't want to look through anybody's sock drawer.

Occasionally in places I've worked, I've exchanged one-on-one e-mails only to find them later posted to a much wider audience, and that's always led me to mentally re-classify the exposer as less-than-trustworthy. It's a pet peeve that's probably common to lots of guys.

I can understand how there's potential ambiguity in this Web forum context, yet my opinion's that we ought to treat PMs just like we treat paper letters. It's against the law to open another person's mail, and I think we'd all be happiest treating PMs with that same level of respect and confidentiality.

Robroy

[Calfdemon]

Sorry about mixing up the names (now fixed in my earlier post)... Yeah, I agree with Steve regarding the censorship issue.. However, I was not speaking to the posting of PM's. While I understand the motive to help make a point, the public posting of PM's is not something that I think many will condone (myself included).

As for me being "one of the bad guys" or "in trouble". Whatever. I have spent my life living that role in some people'e eyes. It goes with my line of work. If someone has a problem with my opinion or my stance on an issue, then that is exactly what it is... Their problem. Like you, I will call a spade a spade and I don't bite my tongue. I will do it in a professional manner and not demean anyone in the process, but if something is wrong, then I will say so.

Nothing I have done can really get me in trouble other than maybe having 1 person upset with my position because I don't agree with them. But everything I have said has been civil and constructive as laid out in the "thread rules" where the banning was mentioned. So not too worried about someone feeling as if I stepped on their toes if that is the case, because I did it within the rules that were posted. But upsetting anyone is also not my intent. Just taking part in the discussion that was offered and posting my opinion based on the evidence presented to this point.

[elgemcdlf]

As to PM's and posting. An email becomes the property of the party it is sent to upon receipt. If one considers PM's in the same group as email then the PM's became my property to do with as I desire. I find it interesting the post referenced (Keith's original) quotes emails from Ken the owner of FTE or at least Keith says they are from him. I have no reason to doubt him just saying he is the sole source of the information. IMHO for a moderator to say I am rude for doing what the owner of the site has done with nothing but praise for "putting it out in the open" seems a bit hypocritical. I did not open another's mail. Once the written letter is received and opened by the intended recipient it is then the property of the recipient. I do believe however you do not need to agree with me for us to get along. If we were all of the same thought wouldn't the world be a mighty boring place?

Calfdemon the only job I can think of that would make you the "bad guy" all the time is being father to teenage girls.

[Calfdemon]

Calfdemon the only job I can think of that would make you the "bad guy" all the time is being father to teenage girls.

Ah, got me there.. Well then I have 2 jobs.