1972 F250 12"x2.5" Bendix rear drum brake rebuild: advice?

[robroy]

Good evening!

I'm still following GSequoia's article, and have made some progress!

Here I'm removing the difficult-to-photograph 7/16" nut that holds the parking brake lever to the backing plate.




With the nut removed, the parking brake lever pulled out (reluctantly).




All these rusty parts are begging to be stripped down and refinished!



Here I'm using the 3841 KD Delux Brake Spring Tool to remove the brake shoe hold-down spring. It seemed to work, but I think pliers would have worked just as well. Maybe this tool will come in handy for re-installing the springs though--I can imagine that.

Here's the front:



And the back:



With those springs removed, I pulled gently on the shoes and they popped out like elephant ears.



And here's the backing plate, looking prehistoric.



The wheel cylinder looks a little shabby too. You can see "USA" on it; I've got to get another one of these, if I need to replace it.



Here's the brake shoe assembly transferred to the bench and pulled apart.



I wanted to make sure the 2223 Brake Hardware Kit was correct, so I pulled it apart.




The retracting springs look like good matches.



The brake shoe hold-down spring also looks good (left). On the right's some more of the hardware in the kit.



The hardware kit included some springs I didn't recognize, and didn't seem to include everything required to do both sides--I don't get it. I'll have to look in to this in more detail tomorrow!

Thanks very much for the excellent guidance!
Robroy

[FreakysFords]

Hidy Robroy.

First off, I personally won't do the brakes and NOT turn the drums as the brakes have to seat to the drum and this takes longer without turning, forces the brakes to wear to any grooves, can glaze the linings. In short, I just wouldn't do it. I know alot of people do and I have customers wanting me to replace their shoes and not turn the drums, but if the drums are not so close to perfect that I can brake the glaze and have a perfect surface, I refuse the work.

Then some information for ya. If you'll clean around the outside (usually at the back edge of the braking surface), you should find the maximum diameter for the drum (the max it can be turned to). Use a reputible shop so the don't A) over turn the thing and b) try to take off more than 2.5 thou on a pass. A good shop will do it right.

Were it me, I'd go ahead and pull the backing plate, have it and any other hard surfaces bead blasted (since after all, you do have one heck of a nice detailed build to date). I'd use a VERY hard paint for the backing plate and components, but you don't want anything that's going to be SUPER thick....... I'm guessing in your collection, you already have what you need. You may end up having to scrape some paint out of some of the pivot holes, but no biggie.

THEN, again, this is JUST WHAT I'D DO............... THEN, I'd pull the wheel cylinder, pull the rubber boots off of each end. and heavily tape the ends with duct tape (all the way into the boot groove) and have it blasted as well for paint.

If there IS any wheel cylinder leaking, you can rebuild it pretty easy at this point. Just push the "guts" out (easy and will make perfect sense when ya do it if you haven't before). Take the cylinder AND the guts to NAPA for a rebuild kit (rubber parts and easy). Check the new components against your old while you're there. If you're going to hone it and you've never done so before, you'd be ahead to have a machine shop do it rather than buy a hone for one use.

Once again, this is overkill in a big way bud. I just couldn't imagine not doing it on something that's been so detailed thus far.

On another note, I use mineral spirits to clean everything up and then use the brake cleaner. One method is to dump all the dust into the trash, then put the drum into a bucket large enough to hold it and dump in the mineral spirits (anything that will hold up and has a sealing lid will do fine). Then some brush work and she's clean.
Another way is just dumping the dust as before, and soaking a rag and going that route. For myself, I do enough cleaning of nasty greasy parts to justify a parts cleaner, but the bucket method works well (have one setup just like it at my in-laws for odds and end work I do there), as you can seal it up and tuck it away till next time.

Something else to consider is asking whatever truckstop is nearest (if they have a truck wash service) if they'd sell some undiluted truck degreaser for the same purpose (don't leave aluminum parts in it for too long!) This stuff is crazy good. It's what I run in my parts cleaner and for soft stripping paint on small parts (takes leaving it in over night, but it's a clean method for stripping paint). This stuff is also an excellent over night rust remover for small parts.

yet another bloated reply, sorry.

Frank

[70_F100]

Robroy, looks like you're on the right track!!!

All of the advice, so far, has been close to perfect!!!

I have only two comments, which are actually corrections to what you've been told.

1) In checking to see if the self-adjusters are working correctly, when you pull on the cable/link, the adjusting lever should come UP, turning the star wheel toward the axle housing. On F100's and other light duty vehicles, the adjusters work opposite from those on your truck.

2) When reassembling, pack the bearings with wheel bearing grease, not axle grease. That may have been what Fordman had in mind, but I just wanted to make sure you're clear on that. Pack them just as you would a front wheel bearing. This provides initial lubrication until the gear oil migrates into the hub cavities.

GREAT JOB of detailing this for everyone!!!

PS: Do yourself a favor, and go buy yourself a floor jack. You'll be GLAD you did, and it's not a large investment, probably less than $100.

PPS: Also, you would be working much more safely if you had the jack stands under the axle, instead of supporting the truck with the timbers under the frame. Not only that, but the stands are much easier to move around than those big, heavy chunks of wood!!!

[robroy]

Good evening Frank and 70_F100, thanks for your most excellent replies!

First off, I personally won't do the brakes and NOT turn the drums as the brakes have to seat to the drum and this takes longer without turning, forces the brakes to wear to any grooves, can glaze the linings. In short, I just wouldn't do it.

Perfect! Thanks for letting me know. I'll definitely have them turned or replace them then (more on that later tonight)!

I know alot of people do and I have customers wanting me to replace their shoes and not turn the drums, but if the drums are not so close to perfect that I can brake the glaze and have a perfect surface, I refuse the work.

That makes sense. I suppose you'd never want to do a brake repair, then have the repair turn out poorly and have them blame you for it, even though they insisted that you do a partial job!

Then some information for ya. If you'll clean around the outside (usually at the back edge of the braking surface), you should find the maximum diameter for the drum (the max it can be turned to).

Found it!!! I'll post a photo later on tonight.

Use a reputible shop so the don't A) over turn the thing and b) try to take off more than 2.5 thou on a pass. A good shop will do it right.

Interesting! I'll ask the shop how much they usually take off in a single pass to see what they say. I'll also let 'em know (very tactfully) that I'm paying attention to the maximum internal diameter!

Were it me, I'd go ahead and pull the backing plate, have it and any other hard surfaces bead blasted (since after all, you do have one heck of a nice detailed build to date). I'd use a VERY hard paint for the backing plate and components, but you don't want anything that's going to be SUPER thick....... I'm guessing in your collection, you already have what you need. You may end up having to scrape some paint out of some of the pivot holes, but no biggie.

I know what you mean Frank! I may wind up doing something like this, despite my intentions to make the rear brakes safe, not to cosmetically restore them.

If I had been doing a frame-up restoration on #50 I'd certainly take time to make the brakes as beautiful as possible, but I'm taking the staged approach. And with that new engine in I'm very eager to get it on the road now! I almost decided to just leave the rear brakes as-is before starting this thread, since I figured they were probably fine (more on the acute folly of my thinking later on tonight)!

THEN, again, this is JUST WHAT I'D DO............... THEN, I'd pull the wheel cylinder, pull the rubber boots off of each end. and heavily tape the ends with duct tape (all the way into the boot groove) and have it blasted as well for paint.

If there IS any wheel cylinder leaking, you can rebuild it pretty easy at this point. Just push the "guts" out (easy and will make perfect sense when ya do it if you haven't before). Take the cylinder AND the guts to NAPA for a rebuild kit (rubber parts and easy). Check the new components against your old while you're there. If you're going to hone it and you've never done so before, you'd be ahead to have a machine shop do it rather than buy a hone for one use.

That sounds like a great way to do it, and may have been wiser than the way I wound up with. I found some Wagner wheel cylinders that were made in Italy for $13.28 each, so I went that route instead. (I'll include more details and photos of those Italian cylinders later on tonight!)

Once again, this is overkill in a big way bud. I just couldn't imagine not doing it on something that's been so detailed thus far.

I know exactly what you mean! And I do have a tremendous urge to make it all clean enough to eat mashed potatoes and gravy off of, yet my urge to test out #50 is stronger at this point. I feel so close to the finish line--at least the finish line to this stage!

That said, I sure will feel better about driving it with fresh, safe rear brakes!

On another note, I use mineral spirits to clean everything up and then use the brake cleaner.

Excellent, thanks for that suggestion! I had some paint thinner that I used today and it worked wonders, and probably cost less than 10% of what I spent in brake cleaner on the other drum.

One method is to dump all the dust into the trash, then put the drum into a bucket large enough to hold it and dump in the mineral spirits (anything that will hold up and has a sealing lid will do fine). Then some brush work and she's clean.
Another way is just dumping the dust as before, and soaking a rag and going that route. For myself, I do enough cleaning of nasty greasy parts to justify a parts cleaner, but the bucket method works well (have one setup just like it at my in-laws for odds and end work I do there), as you can seal it up and tuck it away till next time.

Thanks for these excellent ideas Frank!

Something else to consider is asking whatever truckstop is nearest (if they have a truck wash service) if they'd sell some undiluted truck degreaser for the same purpose (don't leave aluminum parts in it for too long!) This stuff is crazy good. It's what I run in my parts cleaner and for soft stripping paint on small parts (takes leaving it in over night, but it's a clean method for stripping paint). This stuff is also an excellent over night rust remover for small parts.

That's fantastic to know about! There are plenty of truck service places around here so maybe I'll check that out when I'm ready to clean some more parts!

yet another bloated reply, sorry.

I appreciate the time you invest in giving me such great advice Frank, and I've really been paying attention and learning a lot from your responses. So no need to shorten them up by any means!

Robroy, looks like you're on the right track!!!

Excellent, thanks 70_F100!!!

All of the advice, so far, has been close to perfect!!!

Perfect! I've really enjoying putting the advice in to use, and it has been dramatically helpful.

I have only two comments, which are actually corrections to what you've been told.

1) In checking to see if the self-adjusters are working correctly, when you pull on the cable/link, the adjusting lever should come UP, turning the star wheel toward the axle housing. On F100's and other light duty vehicles, the adjusters work opposite from those on your truck.

Oh! Well thanks very much for letting me know. When I get to that stage, I'll definitely return here and review your method!

2) When reassembling, pack the bearings with wheel bearing grease, not axle grease.

Okay! I have some black, high temperature disc brake bearing grease that I was planning on using--I take it that will work fine?

That may have been what Fordman had in mind, but I just wanted to make sure you're clear on that.

Thank you very much!

Pack them just as you would a front wheel bearing. This provides initial lubrication until the gear oil migrates into the hub cavities.

That I will do! I wasn't actually aware that the gear oil actually lubricated the bearings, but now that you mention it, I suppose they were saturated in gear oil when I removed them--it makes sense.

GREAT JOB of detailing this for everyone!!!

Thanks!

PS: Do yourself a favor, and go buy yourself a floor jack. You'll be GLAD you did, and it's not a large investment, probably less than $100.

You're right--I should really do this. I've been postponing it a little bit because I'll want to buy a USA-made one for around $400, but I know I need one if I'm going to keep fiddling around in the garage!

PPS: Also, you would be working much more safely if you had the jack stands under the axle, instead of supporting the truck with the timbers under the frame. Not only that, but the stands are much easier to move around than those big, heavy chunks of wood!!!

Thanks for pointing that out! I was actually under the impression that because the wood blocks were so wide and deep, and contacted a relatively large amount of surface area on the frame, that they'd be safer than jack-stands. But maybe their flexible and wobbly wood nature cancels those benefits out in abundance!

I'll have to keep my eye out for some USA-made jack-stands that are short enough to fit under there.

There was a little bit of rain today with some dramatic clouds!



Frank and 70_F100, thanks for your marvelous replies and generous guidance! I'll post another photographic update later tonight.

Robroy

[70_F100]

Robroy, again, great post.

To answer your questions:

1) The maximum diameter on those drums should be 12.090. That's a 12" drum turned to .090 oversize. If that one groove won't come out, don't fret. If the rest of the drum turns smooth, that one groove will be fine, and eventually, the shoes will wear to that. When there is an extremely "rough" surface, as stated before, the linings will crystallize as they wear to fit. Many disc brake rotors were designed with a single groove in the center of the machined surface, and as I stated about yours, the pads wore fine on the machined surface. That said, if the groove doesn't come out with .090, have them lightly machine the groove so that it is a true surface. This won't weaken the drum, and will insure a smooth surface for the shoes to wear to. Just remember, if you have to pull the drum again after a few miles, the adjuster will have to be backed off because of the wear of the shoe to the drum.

2) I always try to keep the drum diameter the same on opposing ends of a drum-brake axle, and rotor thickness the same with disc brakes. When I was a technician and had a brake job, I would check diameter prior to turning the drums and turn the largest one first. Whatever diameter that resulted in would be the diameter to which I turned the other drum. If one was too far gone to turn within specs, I always replaced the two as a pair. My reasoning for this was that if you had two different-diameter drums (different thickness rotors), the larger (thinner) one would experience more temperature variance than the smaller (thicker) one. The thinner one would heat up quicker and cool quicker than the thicker one, thus providing a different braking force on opposing sides of the vehicle.

3) New drums for your truck will probably (read, "most likely and almost certainly") not come with the center hubs. You will probably have to remove the wheel studs, slide the drums off the hubs, then install new drums and studs. The studs should be pressed in and then "crimped" next to the brake drum to hold the drum securely to the hub. Any good machine shop should be able to handle this task.

4) In most cases, larger bearings such as those on your axle, come with the cups (races) and cones (bearings) sold separately, unlike smaller bearings like front wheel bearings on a car or light-duty truck. This is because each of them may have multiple applications that include different cup/cone combinations. In recent years, even the lighter-duty bearings have come to be sold as individual units.

[Wes]

Royboy, nice write up. You are doing fine job. You might want to get axle flange gaskets to go back together, silicone is ok too.

The drum w/ grove is pretty deep. A nice uniform grove like that in my experience is caused by a broken part rolling around in the drum, or the adjuster arm dragging.
Personally w/ that big bad FE you have for 50 I would want the best brakes. I would replace both drums.

The tool you purchased is not correct for the 3/4 up Fords I use this one, http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp ... ir=catalog at work. This appears to be an improved version of the one I use at home http://www.mactools.com/product/tabid/1 ... bt125.aspx.

keep up the good work

[71PA_Highboy]

3) New drums for your truck will probably (read, "most likely and almost certainly") not come with the center hubs. You will probably have to remove the wheel studs, slide the drums off the hubs, then install new drums and studs. The studs should be pressed in and then "crimped" next to the brake drum to hold the drum securely to the hub. Any good machine shop should be able to handle this task.

These lug studs are not swaged on.
That said, you can remove them, separate the hub and drum, and save yourself a couple of $ on labor for the machine shop to do it for you.
I found when I did mine that you cannot properly reinstall them with a hammer. The 'bounce' prevents you from completely seating the lug studs. They must be pressed into place, so if you do not have a hydraulic press I would have the machine shop install them.

And as a side note, I would 'speedy sleeve' the seal surface. Not that yours is in need, but that way the sleeve takes the wear, not the spindle.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... index.html

JMO.

[speed bump]

3) New drums for your truck will probably (read, "most likely and almost certainly") not come with the center hubs. You will probably have to remove the wheel studs, slide the drums off the hubs, then install new drums and studs. The studs should be pressed in and then "crimped" next to the brake drum to hold the drum securely to the hub. Any good machine shop should be able to handle this task.

These lug studs are not swaged on.
That said, you can remove them, separate the hub and drum, and save yourself a couple of $ on labor for the machine shop to do it for you.
I found when I did mine that you cannot properly reinstall them with a hammer. The 'bounce' prevents you from completely seating the lug studs. They must be pressed into place, so if you do not have a hydraulic press I would have the machine shop install them.

And as a side note, I would 'speedy sleeve' the seal surface. Not that yours is in need, but that way the sleeve takes the wear, not the spindle.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... index.html

JMO.

I never had a problem seating them with a hammer but maybe thats just me. Seems like I used a 4 lb drilling hammer and a brass punch when I did mine.

[robroy]

Good evening!

In GSequoia's great article I read that I should have a 6" c-clamp on hand to simplify my life during brake shoe installation.

I looked at Sears and OSH but couldn't find anything not made in China, so I decided to try this German-made welding clamp instead. It was around $28 instead of around $15, and seems to be a real, quality tool that I'll be able to use for many years to come. I tried it out a few times and it works very nicely!

The printing on its handle reads, "MMS-8 BESSEY M-G20B6ZK Made in Germany."



Next, I wanted to paint the new wheel cylinders. I pulled the rubber boots and bleeder fitting off of an old cylinder to simplify masking, cleaned briefly with Eastwood's PRE solvent and a clean rag, then painted with a Daytona Yellow Dupli-Color Engine Enamel rattle-can.




To my surprise, the bleeder fittings that came with these Italian wheel cylinders were made for a metric (10mm) wrench, not the 3/8" wrench that we're used to!



After three coats about fifteen minutes apart, I let it dry for an hour and removed the old rubbers.



Here's the final product! We'll see how well this paint holds up (when I do my next brake job years down the road).




Then I prepared the passenger's side cylinder for paint, but it was too cold outside by then for ideal drying--I'll hit it tomorrow.



Here's the paint. I happened to have this on the shelf so I thought I'd give it a whirl.



Here's one of the new "nails" in the 2223 Brake Hardware Kit; it's a perfect match.



I started to clean up the driver's side backing plate, using paint thinner, a parts cleaning brush, and some rags. It's rather painful to not pull it completely apart and properly re-finish it, but I'm trying to be practical and get #50 on the road sooner rather than later.






Here are the UP-316R brake shoes! The old brake shoes had 1/8" of lining left (from the lining surface to the metal "shell," not to the brass rivets), and these new shoes have 1/4".



I noticed these papers in the UP-316R box:



This warranty paper says that they won't honor their normal warranty for me--they limit it to vehicles with GVW ratings under 8,000 pounds! #50 is out of luck in this case.



There was only one more paper in the box, so just for the sake of documentation here it is:



Today's Question:

• Is there any functional reason for me to get the backing plate cleaner than it currently is (photos shown above)?

Thanks very much for the superb, quality guidance!
Robroy

[fordman]

only if you are going to paint it and want the paint to stick and stay on there. otherwise no need to clean it any better than it is.

[robroy]

Good evening Fordman, thanks for replying!

only if you are going to paint it and want the paint to stick and stay on there. otherwise no need to clean it any better than it is.

Excellent!

I'm using all of my will power to resist thoroughly re-finishing the backing plates, parking brake levers, and other little pieces. I keep saying to myself, "This stuff is all relatively easy to get to, and brakes do wear out; there will be a Next Time."

Thanks for your quick reply Fordman!
Robroy

[fordman]

i havent been keeping up much on this because it is hard to spend alot of tiem reading everyones comments. and i knwo they are steerign you in the right way. soemthing i havent seen or maybe its there and i skimmed past it. but the litle tin plate on the old shoes shown on thr shoe on the right in this picture. http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_7606x.JPG has to be reused on your new shoes.

[robroy]

Good evening Fordman!

i havent been keeping up much on this because it is hard to spend alot of tiem reading everyones comments.

I understand completely!

and i knwo they are steerign you in the right way.

Indeed they (and you) are!!!

soemthing i havent seen or maybe its there and i skimmed past it. but the litle tin plate on the old shoes shown on thr shoe on the right in this picture. http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_7606x.JPG has to be reused on your new shoes.

Thanks for pointing that out! I'll be sure to do a minute, side-by-side comparison between the old and new shoes, and transfer over all the little doo-dads then. I can see the value in pointing that out to me though, since I might have turned in my old shoes to get my core charge back and lost those little parts!

Thanks for your great reply Fordman!
Robroy

[robroy]

Good evening!

Earlier I got to looking at the new UP-316R brake shoes, and made a curious discovery.

Two of the shoes have 1/4" thick linings, while the other two have 3/16" thick linings! All of the linings look perfectly new despite this oddity.

Is this by design? Do I need to haul these back to NAPA for comparison with another set?

Thanks very much for the fantastic advice!
Robroy

[FreakysFords]

It's supposed to be that way, The front shoe takes more loading and abuse, so needs to be thicker for even wear.

Love the wheel cylinder detail btw!

Any news on the drum's survival?

Frank