The Great Tranny Debate

[19674x4]

So Lance(71Ford100) and I have been having this great debate over transmissions. Automatics Vs. Manuals. While lance is debating over the efficiency and i am debating over the general use of the transmision, we have agreed to limit it to efficiency for all applications except for off-roading where a manual is obviously supreme. So we will each get our opening statements and then it is open for free discussion. please keep it civil and on topic.NO THREAD HI-JACKING or off topic posts please.


let the debate begin

[71Ford100]

Looking at the evolution of the automatic transmission i believe that now automatics are on the same par or a hair above manuals as far as effieceny mpg and all that. There isn't a right or wrong answer because there are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many variables to take into consideration. I prefer manuals no doubt about it but in todays modern age there is a reason there are more auto's being produced than manuals.

Anyone care to venture into y most draggers use autos?

[19674x4]

heres the way i look at it. the automatic was simply created to make driving the vehicle easier. it was not made for performance enhancement, it has been proven that automatics steal horsepower. I dont have the link handy but there is a link on here somewhere showing that set of dyno statistics. There is also more to go wrong. modulators, internals, pickup pumps, ect. and on todays new automatics, the computer does everything, you have no say in it rather than putting it in drive, park, or reverse. A standard preset setting from the factory cannot accomidate each road condition and payload or trailer weight. Nor can it decide the best gear for weather conditions. another thing is that manual transmissions are so much simpler to work on, any person with some mechanical background and a manual can re-build a np-435 or t-19. someone of that same stature tearing into a automatic would be lost. they weigh more in most cases, generally cost more at junkyards. that is mostly my point of view. have at it guys

[SteveC]

the problem i have with autos is quite a few.

to easy to get destracted while driving, with a manual you have to keep concetrated on what you are doing and around you to select the right gears.
like stated before ive got stuck with more autos on a small patch of ice just trying to barley above idle get off of it.
I like being able to select what gear i need.
as also stated there is alot more to go wrong in a automatic, i mean just getting to low on fluid and you cant move.


Though in defense of the auto i will say that for people just starting to learn to drive it may be a good choice to some extent, and that for people that can no longer drive a stick do to health or other issues they are nice.

As far as gas mileage goes their are a lot of variables. I mean if on person with the automatic has a light foot never hot rods it will get better milage than a person that either has their foot through the floor board on the gas or through the floor board on the brake( that was my grandfather...really scary to see a 70 ford ltd gain air over a bump in the road )

Their are so many factors you just need to be able to make the decision on what you are going to do and how much you want to be able to rebuild if you needed to. My self if money allowed would changed every thing i own to a manual shift. Seems less people want to borrow my truck if its a stick .

When i comes right down to it i would say a manual transmission is better

[AlleyCat]

I've had many vehicles with both manuals and automatics.As a diesel mechanic I've learned to drive a wide variety of manuals including trucks with auxilary transmissions ( 2 shift levers) and 2 speed rears.I've driven a couple that had 3 speed tandem rear axles.Over all I think a manual is stronger and more efficent than a comparable auto.

I had stick shift DD's for many years but the last 7 -8 years I've been forced to buy automatic trucks.The reason is arthritus.Getting stuck in heavy traffic with a manual on a day when " art" is making his presence known can just about put tears in my eyes.

[cdherman]

I just swapped out a T-18 for a C4. Clearly lost some efficiency, but as noted by the last poster -- there are times and places where driving a manual is a real pain. In my case, in heavy traffic, I am paranoid about other drivers (my truck has been restored) and I'd rather pay attention to defensive driving than shifting.

Now, modern automatic transmissions are vastly more efficient and reliable. In fact, the towing capacieties on most trucks and cars are better with an automatic than with manuals, due to the weakness of the modern "easy to use" clutches.

Sorry, automatics are winning.

We are already seeing automatic trannies that are actually manual transmissions with a clutch that is computer operated. These will provide the kind of efficiency of a manual, with the conveniences of an automatic.

[cdherman]

Ditto about the studpidity of "lifetime oil" -- Japs, or at least toyota is a little brighter. My Rollla not only has a nice dipstick to check level, but a real honest drain plug in the tranny so that I can drain the oil in the pain out. They also state in the manual that changing the fluid is not necessary, but they make it doable if you want to.

See, I disagree that "drving a manual is more fun". It can be more fun if that's what you call fun. But that is just subjective. I like to enjoy driving and having to shift is not fun.

One of the reasons that automatic tranmissions are getting as good of fuel economy as manual trannies is precisely because the computer determines the shift points. With a manual, the fuel economy is at the mercy of the driver, who usually does not know where the correct shift points are (coupled with a vacuum guage, they can be found though).

What I think we need to see more of are user controlable settings from the factory. Some trucks have these already so that you can swtich the tranny into "tow mode". Why not have some global settings that effect the engine and tranny both. Like "Economy", "Performance" and "Towing". Three chips from the factory so to speak.....

[averagef250]

There are many variables here. The driver is the biggest of all.

I have a lot of experience driving vehicles of all sorts. The reason I prefer driving a stick is I can control exactly what the vehicle is doing. This plays into everything I do with the vehicle from heavy towing to fuel economy.

Not to brag or expand my ego, but I know how to drive. I have never had to replace a clutch in anything I've ever owned from my use. I've put 180K miles, much of it heavy towing, on one FE clutch and had it still look and work like new (no wear, not even a heat mark). Everything I drive I get better fuel economy, brake and tire life than most other people driving the same thing.

A stick is only more efficient than a modern auto IF you know how to drive it. Every engine has a narrow range where it is most efficient. A good driver knows exactly where this range is and knows how to keep the engine there. A modern electronic auto does not shift at optimum times for efficiency, the computer shiftpoint map is a sacrificing combination of efficiency, driver comfort and safety for stupid drivers.

95% of drivers will have better results with a modern electronic auto than with a modern stick for maintainance and fuel costs. Most people do not know how to properly run 3 pedals anymore. To make matters worse modern hydraulic clutches and dual mass clutch discs make it hard for even a seasoned 3 pedal driver to get any feedback from the clutch. Modern sticks are being designed to be idiot proof.

Good stick drivers are conservative, patient and have very good reflexes and react quickly in tricky situations.

Bad stick drivers prefer a stick for the "sport" of it. Preferring to bang through the gears just wears things out.

[1971fordsdad]

As a former drag racer, I can tell you that automatics reign supreme. A modern automatic, set up correctly with a good shift kit will do at least as well as a manual as far as E.T. is concerned. When bracket racing you need to match your dial-in time so consistency is vital. Bracket racers win by less than a tenth of a second without going below their dial-in. This kind of consistency is very hard with a manual trans. As far as the fun factor is concerned, there is nothing funner than grabbing second and third gear rubber in a manual, or popping the clutch in a turn to swing the back end around.

[Redcap]

I run sticks exclusively and have since I was learning to drive at 12 in the flatbed, hauling hay. Can't stand slushboxes.

[fitzwell]

Auto.
I learned how to drive a standard..100's of years ago. My daily driver is a 5spd. Which is great, unless you get hung in rush hour traffic. It then becomes a "rowfest"

The hot rod has a c-4, red white a c-4 as well. The 68 will start out with a c-6, until i can upgrade to a trick shift E4OD. Call me lazy, but i LIKE pulling the selector into position, and not having to worry about it

Besides, the guy that does my trans work is nothing short of phenomenal.
He modified the trans in my tbird when i got it, and it still worked flawlessly, after 280k.

[ToughOldFord]

There's no question that a standard is more efficient than an auto, there's no converters or pumps to drive, those use valuable HP.

Those of you that have followed my progress with my truck know that I can't get more than 8mpg out of it, with the exception of when I put the clutch fan in it and it gave my 8.5 until I fixed my AC and had to take the clutch fan back out. So back to 8mpg. Now, I recently upgraded from my C6 to a NP and I've gained at least over 1mpg. I'm averaging 9.2 now and it's actually better because my speedometer is now off with the donor speedo cable and gear in the truck. I'm reading approx 10mph less than I'm actually going so that means I'm not logging all the miles I'm actually driving so my MPG is better than the 9.2 I'm registering.

This is even better evidence than similar vehicles, this is the exact same truck, same engine, same driver, same routes, etc. Better mileage with the manual.

[binder56jd]

too many variables

boils down to pc(personal choice)

gearing is the definitive answer

(are we debating using the ron white rules or the formally acknowledged high school format? )



obtw--i'll bet a dollar to a hole in a donut that everyone here is "a better driver" than anyone else

[ToughOldFord]

What I'm pointing out though is that I eliminated all the variables with my swap. The transmission is the only thing that's different.

[binder56jd]

TOF--u have a well controlled set of parameters

case in point

pick any multi-car nascar shop(or any other format NHRA-IRL)

identical cars(everything from fab to race day)

one is much quicker and faster(with same driver)

go figure